By the way, @Harry, the MOL isn't even revealed until after the apostasy. So which comes first, the chicken or the egg? How does WW3 come and the MOL revealed before the apostasy? Doesn't that contradict 2Th 2?
Your view: Okay, so you come to a point where you are forced to worship the image/beast and you refuse to. Jehovah does not mark you with his 666 mark that he gives out. But now without that mark you can't buy or sell. What can't you buy or sell during this time? Regardless, because you did not worship the image/beast and Jehovah did not put his 666 mark on you, you can say you are one of the ones that came off victorious against worshipping the beast and image and you did not get the mark from Jehovah so you will not receive his wrath. Now another person comes to the point where they are forced to worship the image/beast and they do worship the image/beast. Now Jehovah marks them with his 666 mark. Because they have the mark they can buy/sell. What is it that they can buy/sell that you can't? Regardless because they worshipped the image/beast and Jehovah marked them with his 666 mark, they will receive his wrath. Another view: A person comes to the point where they are forced to worship the image/beast and take the mark from the beast. There refuse to worship the image/beast thereby refusing to take his (beast) mark. Now without that mark they can't buy/sell. Regardless, because they did not worship the image/beast and take his (beast) mark, they can say they are one of the ones that came off victorious against worshipping the beast and image and from taking his (beast) mark so they will not receive Jehovah's wrath. Now another person comes to the point where they are forced to worship the image/beast and take his (beast) mark. They do worship the image/beast and take his (beast) mark. Because they have the mark they can buy/sell. Regardless because they worshipped the image/beast and took his (beast) mark, they will receive Jehovah's wrath.
You have already agreed that the apostasy connected with the MOL is the same as the apostasy with the DT/KOTN. That apostasy comes when the DT/KOTN is put into place. His being putting into place corresponds to the MOL sitting in the temple. That is when the MOL is revealed, and the apostasy takes place. The DT/KOTN/MOL will not be put into place until after WW3. [31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. “And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively.36 “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the God of his fathers; nor will he show regard for the desire of women or for any other god, but he will magnify himself over everyone.] cf. [4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.]
You get disfellowshipped. The church adopts the image, and if you stay in the church supporting the image you get the 666 mark. If you leave because you won't except what the church is doing you don't recieve the mark. --- So, the MOL is revealed when it stands in a holy place? What's the constant feature and when is it removed? Can you walk me step by step through your time of the end?
Oh my word! I love your version! Here I thought I would suffer such a hardship of not taking the mark because of not be able to buy/sell what I needed in everyday life. I thought as much as I know and have faith now, when the time comes, and I am faced with such a hardship I will probably right away take the mark. But now that I know that it's my church that adopts the use of the image and forces me too also, I know that I can resist that and be disfellowshipped. Now I know I won't get the 666 mark from Jehovah, what a relief. What a second why is anyone part of a church now? Is there a church now who is not full of BS lies/false teachings? Come to think of it, I don't belong to any church now. Does that mean I will never get the 666 mark from Jehovah, because I will never be forced to worship the image/beast and you said if we leave, we won't receive the mark, so since I am not there now anyway it is as though I already left. Yay for all the people that don't go to church now, they will never be faced with having to worship the image and as a result get the mark from Jehovah if they did. Question though, why all the need for endurance and faith during that time? [9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”] [5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
I'm sure you're being facetious... The constant feature is the preaching work. The elders of God's church will be blind and treat those under them terribly. Look at the elders when Jesus came. The same will happen in the end, according to all the books of the prophets. Prophecies also tell us that God's people will be preaching lies. Just because the WT teaches 1914 doesn't mean they are not God's people. In fact, it reinforces it. The text concerns itself with those who take the mark, those on the inside doing the preaching work. You stand on your faith and works if you are not a church member. However, I'm sure you could still voice your support of the image to others. Again, the text discusses buying and selling, which is religious work. Hence, the merchants in Rev 18 are priests who mourn when BTG/Holy See goes down. True, but they still have to have faith and works, and not voice support of the image. But, just because you don't receive the mark doesn't mean you will make it. Again, only the faithful can receive the mark of apostasy. The mark of the beast only concerns itself with those buying and selling from Jesus, the true people of God doing the preaching work. When the Watchtower adopts the image, those who refuse to accept it will be confused. Imagine the test of their faith if they don't know what's happening. Then, the WT will be destroyed and will no longer exist. Imagine the test of faith for the faithful when the world turns on them and not Christiandom as they believe. The preaching work will be given over to Babylon, meaning JWs will preach in support of the image. 430 days later, as in Ezekiel's brick narrative, the WT goes down. 42 months after the preaching work was given over to Babylon, Jesus receives the kingdom of the earth. Joshua
Whoever exerts coercion is morally responsible for attempting to violate a person's free will by seeking to force consent, and there is only one entity I know that would do such a thing, and it ain't my God. So according to you, god gives the mark of the beast, but without which no one can buy gold from jesus, which in turn is needed to be able to offer a sacrifice of praise to god - praising god by worshiping Satan; what does that tell about your god, for he sure ain't my God? Why would anyone worship a god like that? You got me baffled. Harry
What are you talking about? lol... The beast influences people to commit apostasy. God just labels them with apostasy. God says to remain separate from the world. If the world influences you to become part of it, God will consider you fallen away, apostate. This is exactly what the WT did with the NGO at the UN. They allowed the UN to talk them into joining, and they committed an apostate act in God's eyes. At which point God would give them the mark of Solomon 666. Whatever you just tried to say is nothing like what I explained...lol I am good with my God seeing others as apostates who support BTG and worldly ideologies like equity agendas. Joshua
I am a member of the only Church no one can join. Christ's second coming will be totally different to His first, to wit: 'Days will come [during the great tribulation on Christianity] when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, but you will not see it,' because this time the 'Kingdom of God is coming with striking observableness,' where the chosen ones are caught up to Christ in the sky for all the tribes of the earth to see. Lu 17:20 Didn't you say that God gives the mark of the beast? And that the 'buying' is spiritual, so that without the mark of the beast no one can 'buy gold' from Jesus? And without gold from Jesus they cannot offer a sacrifice of praise to Jehovah? And therefore Jehovah requires people to get the mark of the beast in order to worship Him? Where did I misunderstand you? Harry
I agree that they committed apostasy, but that is not the mark of the beast, because WT was not put under compulsion to join the UN, they just sucked up to it for their own perceived gain. Do you agree that the wild beast will rule the whole world? Or will it be an entity with authority only over Christians? Harry
I agree with you there; it is all about God's righteousness, which is why Satan is crying foul and cranking up the 'social justice' agenda, to convince the world that Jehovah is an unjust and oppressive dictator that needs to be replaced, and He is allowing Himself to be made obsolete through technology and media propaganda, so that only those who love Him with the right motive will be left to worship Him. WT's claim that only 'God's kingdom' can solve mankind's problems is a trap to prepare the world for the 'incoming kingdom' that 'all the earth will follow with admiration.' Harry
The beast says you cannot preach without the mark of the beast, not God. The only thing God does is stamp the 666; the beast does everything else in the text. The beast influences, says you can't preach without worshipping the image, etc... If you listen to the beast, God will consider you fallen away, apostate, 666. 666 just means you are an apostate. You might as well replace 666 with the word apostate. The beast says you must worship the image to continue worshipping Jesus. God doesn't say this. The beast says, "Okay, I've set up an equity agenda. (the image) All churches must allow gay people to be married in your church or you can no longer worship Jesus. (buy sell from Jesus)" Maybe they'll lose their non-profit status or something if they don't. Who knows... If you listen to the beast and continue to preach God's kingdom in your church along with preaching how you accept gays etc, you are now an apostate. Again, the only thing God does is label you apostate. No, it was not the mark of the beast; I was just making a point to help you understand the future. The 8th king will rule the world in a one-world order. We just disagree on when this will happen. You see the deathstroke as the abyss, so you believe WW3 comes at the beginning. I believe the deathstroke and abyssing are two different events, so the abyssing and WW3 happens much later in the time of the end. Joshua
Don't you think that Satan would also want the billions of non-Christians to worship him as their god, and to seal their loyalty to him by accepting the mark of the beast, which will guarantee them the wrath of God and eternal oblivion? Harry
They are already lost... Why would Satan concern himself with people he knows are already not making it? He's going after the faithful... Joshua
I know that Solomon fell to apostasy. But I don't feel comfortable calling the mark of the beast, the mark of Solomon. It just seems disrespectful to one of Jehovahs anointed ones. The WT teaches many truths, more than any other religion. What lies are you referring to?
All that matters is how the Bible defines itself. "For it is the number of a man, and his number is 666." Rev 13:18 "Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold," 1Kgn 10:14 1914 is a lie; it was a mistake by Russel. Joshua
I agree; however: "For whoever observes all the Law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against them all." Jas 2:10 "I write you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie originates with the truth." Joh 2:21 "Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you people worship the Father,' for, 'the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship Him." Joh 4:21,23 But WT still preaches that 'God's spirit directed organization' is 'the [mountain like] place where persons ought to worship.' Joh 4:20 Their job - just like that of Judaism in old times - is to serve as tutor leading to Christ, but they are hanging on to their charges like grim death, or else throwing them to the wolves, instead of attaching them to Christ, as they are supposed to be doing. Even the things they once got right are now being exchanged for the lie, like for instance: WT used to teach that all anointed ones are the 'faithful and discreet slave,' but now it is only the GB, although Jesus clearly tells us who the 'slave' is, namely, those who will be appointed over His all His belongings, which will not be the 9 members of the GB, but all faithful anointed ones at His arrival on the clouds of Heaven - they are in direct violation of Christ's word. The question then is: Does the God of Truth expect us to be submissive to lies, in order to please Him? Ro 6:16; 2 Pe 2:19 Should we 'patiently wait on Jehovah' to be destroyed along with the 'idolators' for 'liking and carrying on a lie?' Re 22:15 Or is that what His sworn enemy has tricked us into believing? When following Paul's counsel to not 'forsake the gathering of ourselves together,' should we then not also obey his directive to, 'speak truth each one of you with his neighbor' at the meetings, regardless of consequences? Eph 4:25; Joh 16:2; Re 2:2; 1 Joh 4:1 Just something to consider. Harry
I guess I just see the weight of gold as a portent that symbolized his apostasy if I let the bible define itself. I still will never call the mark of the beast the mark of Solomon, because Solomon, even though he fell to his foreign wives, is still talked about in the bible in a good way for the majority of the narrative regarding him. The mark of the beast is an unforgiveable sin that mankind will take on, and unless you can show me that Solomon will not be forgiven then I cannot accept YOUR definition what you call the mark of Solomon. If God had defined the mark of the beast as the mark of Solomon it would be different, but he didn't, you did. God has given the scriptures to us to discern right from wrong, good from evil, and for most of the stories regarding Solomon, they are wonderful stories that lead to an unfortunate end. Maybe i'm being too sentimental but Solomon seemed like such a wonderful man...and if anything it shows the power of what 'bad association' can do to a person.
I'm not saying he was anything. I'm not judging him. It all comes down to who the "man" is in the text. If the "man" is Solomon, then God calls the mark the mark of Solomon. "for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666." Rev 13 13 Regardless, I don't care if anyone "accepts" what I have to say; we must all forge our own paths in life. We are all individually accountable to God. I'm sure a lot of good things could be said about Hitler, but I doubt too many people will say them. I'm not saying Solomon is Hitler; I'm just making a point. To me, just because someone did many good things in life doesn't necessarily mean they will make it. But again, I am not Solomon's judge. God is the judge, and whether Solomon makes it or not is up to him. All I've said is if the Bible calls the mark a "man's" number, and if that man is Solomon, that would mean God calls the mark the mark of Solomon. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I don't care anything about being right; I want to be correct. Joshua