The New Order

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Sep 20, 2021.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    No Jews died in Jerusalem in 70 CE. None of Abrahams' seed and no Israelite died when Rome destroyed the temple in the first century.

    Does that shock you?

    Who is a Jew?

    "A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly." Rom 2:29

    So, according to Paul, a Jew is one inwardly, not outwardly, physically.

    So, who is Israel, and who is the seed of Abraham according to Paul?

    "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring." Rom 9:6-8

    So, God's children, according to Paul, are not physical, genetic individuals, but those who are the children of the promise who are Abraham's offspring.

    What promise, may you ask?

    "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." MTh 19:28

    "And this is what he promised us—eternal life." Jhn 2:25

    Now, this wasn't always the case, was it? For 2500 years before Jesus, a Jew was one genetically. They kept track of genealogies for thousands of years. So what changed?

    Jesus changed it...

    "Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second." Heb 10:9

    Jesus puts away the first sacrifices to establish the second, His eternal sacrifice for us once for all. He put away the first.....

    Now here's the deal, the physical sanctuary and temple the Jewish nation had for 2000 years were not the real one! It was the metaphor.

    "For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence." Heb 9:24

    The physical temple was only a metaphor.

    "They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." Heb 8:5

    Jesus never entered the Most Holy on earth; He entered the "Most Holy Place," Heaven...

    "He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption." Heb 9:12

    Paul said the Law was only a metaphor.

    "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves." Heb 10:1

    The sanctuary was a metaphor for the real to come.

    "We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf." Heb 6:19

    Paul said the festivals were metaphors of the reality found in Christ!

    "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Col 2:16, 17

    Paul tells us that the way into Heaven wasn't made clear while the first tabernacle was functioning. Once Jesus made it clear He was the way to the Most Holy Place/Heaven, the sanctuary no longer functioned.

    "The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning." Heb 9:8

    The temple was only a metaphor for the real temple, our bodies! Our bodies are the real temple!

    "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;" 1Cor 6:19

    God's Spirit dwells in us because the physical temple was only a metaphor for our bodies.

    "Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?" 1Cor 3:16

    Did God destroy Rome for the destruction of Jerusalem? No, because Rome didn't destroy God's temple.

    "If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple." 1Cor 3:17

    What is the real temple, the real Jew, the real sacrifices, the real cleansing? Christians are the real Jews, the real temple, the real sanctuary, and so on.

    What are the sacrifices? Our praise is the true sacrifices.

    "Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name. And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased." Heb 13:15

    What is the Laver, the cleansing water in the courtyard? The physical one was only a metaphor for the real cleansing.

    "Let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water." Heb 10:22

    Therefore, were any Jews in Jerusalem in 70 CE?

    "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city." Luk 21:20, 21

    According to Jesus and Paul, there should have been no Jews in Jerusalem when it was attacked. What was destroyed was merely a shadow of the real. And what was destroyed in 70 CE was an antichrist cult.

    Joshua
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    "When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order." Heb 9:6-10

    So, if the way into the Most Holy was seen in Christ Jesus death, and at that point, the physical sanctuary no longer functioned, then it's clear why Paul says "until the time of the new order."

    "For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance." Heb 9:15

    Our Lord came to fulfill the shadows which were the Law, tabernacle, and sanctuary, all described by Paul as the metaphor or shadow. This "new order," therefore, is the establishment of the real... The real sacrifice, the real temple, the real seed of Abraham.

    Our Lord put away the first to establish this second.

    "Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second." Heb 10:9

    Our Lord established the real laver, the washing away of our sin by His blood.

    "Let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water." Heb 10:22

    According to Paul, this is the "new order" that our Lord established, and this is evident all throughout his writings. Jesus came to establish the real because the previous could not fulfill forgiveness, nor the promise. Jesus, upon establishing the way into the Most Holy, fulfilled the shadow and established the real.

    Joshua
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Who does God establish a new covenant with?

    "The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah." Heb 8:8

    So, did God establish the new covenant with the entire nation of Israel, the Jewish religious elite?

    "By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." Heb 8:13

    The last is done away and is obsolete because the physical nation of Israel was unfaithful, and the first covenant was lacking because it could not permanently remove sin nor fulfill the promise of everlasting life.

    "For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said;" Heb 8:7,8

    So when did the physical temple stop functioning? Paul tells us;

    "The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper." Heb 9:9,8

    When did the sacrifices stop? When Jesus because the real one...

    "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered?" Heb 10:1,2

    When was the way into the Most Holy Place disclosed? Paul tells us;

    "But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, a he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation." Heb 9:11

    "Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body," Heb 10:19, 20

    So then, what does Paul call this time in which Jesus becomes the real High Priest and the real sacrifice?

    "They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order." Heb 9:10

    What was the Law?

    What was the Tabernacle?

    What were the feasts?

    They were all shadows, metaphors for the real, which is found in Christ!

    "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Col 2:17

    "They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." Heb 8:5

    "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves." Heb 10:1

    Shadow: 4639 skiá – properly, the shadow of a looming presence; (figuratively) a spiritual reality (good or bad) relating to God's light or spiritual darkness.

    Shadow = Metaphor

    Joshua
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So then, when and how does Christ appear a second time?

    "Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." Heb 9:28
     
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    RR144

    RR144 New Member

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    Um, just because Jesus warned the Jews to flee, does not in itself mean that they did. I'm sure some did, but even Josephus states 1.1 million died and another 97,000 were enslaved.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Can it be said that any Christians died in Jerusalem? If one can't say either way, then one is simply left with Jesus' words, right?

    So if we assume they all did listen to Jesus, then not a single Jew died in Jerusalem in 70 CE. Correct? Would you not agree with that statement?

    Joshua
     
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    RR144 New Member

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    So you're saying Josephus lied? That he's not a viable source? Shoould we then discount all of his historical contributions?

    We can't assume that they ALL listened to him. Remember the Jews have a history of disobedience, they are after all a "stiff neck people".

    RR
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings brother,

    Having read them, I'm pretty familiar with Josephus' writings; however, I'm not familiar with him ever saying any Christians died in that city. Perhaps I just missed it, and you can quote that information here for me. Thanks...

    Hence why I asked you to assume for a minute. Assume just for a moment that every Christian did escape Jerusalem; Could it be said that a single Jew died in Jerusalem in 70 CE?
     
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    PaulAche

    PaulAche New Member

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    To be honest, I'm confused. The first text by Joshua is referring to the fact that the Jews are spiritual in nature, hence "A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly." Rom 2:29.

    Then...Joshua you ask if any Jews died in 70 CE, which in itself seems to pertain to the physical nature of man. Perhaps you should define which Jews you are talking about before you engage in a thought provoking exercise to the forum.

    If we on the one hand are discussing a physical Jew, and you are talking about a spiritual Jew then how will we ever come to a meeting of minds on the subject? It feels like you are fishing for the answer you want to hear from us, but you have not set a foundation upon which your topic can stand yet....hence the limited response.

    Bottom line...what is the point you are trying to make? Perhaps you should Make it and then let the forum discuss whether it stands on its merit, or whether there is more that can be ascertained from the point you are trying to make, and there is ALWAYS more that can be ascertained, which is why forums exist in the first place.

    Your scriptural references elude to the spiritual Israel, which I would have to agree that none of the chosen at that time(70AD) died in the fall of Jerusalem because they "listened to the voice" of our King Jesus Christ. However, your question is different that what I am gleaning from the scriptures...henceforth elaborate on your initial statement so that others can contribute.

    Whats the point of a forum if not to exchange ideas? If you have an idea then make it clear to the other members so that they can be a part of your idea. Iron sharpens Iron.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings PaulAche,

    I certainly did ask the question to invoke interchange, a response, to spark others to consider the subject. On occasion, I like to spark others' contemplations rather than to teach. Few people tend to listen if you simply tell everyone what scripture is saying all the time. Please understand, I've run a forum for nearly a decade now. ;) Spice keeps the coffee interesting...

    You separate a "spiritual" Jew from a genetic Jew in your post, while, in fact, that concept does not exist in scripture after our Lord fulfilled the Law. By way of information, a real Jew is one of a promise, not genetics once our Lord fulfilled the High Priest role. Here, I'll show you...

    To begin, the first were only metaphors.

    "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Col 2:17

    "They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." Heb 8:5

    "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves." Heb 10:1

    Then we are told what a real Jew is,

    "A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly." Rom 2:29

    "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring." Rom 9:6-8
    -------
    Therefore, once our Lord fulfilled the Law, a real Jew was one of the promise, not genetics. According to Scripture, the old covenant was merely a metaphor for the real found in Jesus. (Col 2:17)

    No Jews died in Jerusalem in 70 CE if they listened to our Lord's words to get out. There is only one Jew, and those are of the promise. There is no such thing as a physical, genetic Jew, according to scripture.
     
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    PaulAche New Member

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    Yes, exactly. For a forum to flourish and grow nobody should act like only they know what the Bible teaches, that would push others away. I'm sure over the ten years you have figured that out.

    Yes the history of the Jewish people, and what happened after Jesus Christ is a very interesting topic considering that the whole essence of their religious faith no longer existed within the framework of the law, but was instantly changed to something spiritual, to something they could not see. It's no wonder it was so difficult for them to accept Jesus as their King because it forced them to acknowledge that their way of conducting worship was no longer valid.

    When you consider all the tradition, and ceremony that the Israelite nation utilized in their worship over several centuries, and how deeply ingrained it was a part of their culture, it's easy to see why most of them refused to believe in Jesus as their Messiah. He was telling them something that went completely contrary to what they had believed for generations. It was an entirely new culture built on Christ that essentially came to exist overnight in a manner of speaking.

    In todays world we can compare it to changing people from celebrating Christmas, or Easter, as to seeing these religious customs as pagan and false. To get people to believe that these holidays, which are so deeply rooted into our culture, is actually wrong, even Satanic, is very difficult for most people to acknowledge. That is the same type of mindset that the Jews had with Jesus Christ when he told them their father was the devil, ouch! that one hurt.


    I feel like the confusion of the question in the OP derailed the discussion. It's easy to interchange the term 'jew' for Israelite because its so common to do so. I think when we are talking about the Israelites it makes more sense to identify them as such because it truly encompasses them as a whole.

    I understand your frustration...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings brother,

    Herein lies my point. If we say Jesus brought a spiritual form of worship rather than the physical, the real, are we not contradicting scripture? Scripture says the old was the metaphor and the real was in Christ, right? To me, it's a matter of using scriptures descriptive contexts...

    The old covenant became obsolete more than 500 years before our Lord's ministry.

    "In saying new, He made the first obsolete, and that which is obsolete is nigh to vanishing." Heb 8:13

    Then that old covenant vanished the moment our Lord fulfilled the High Priest role.

    "The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning." Heb 9:8

    "But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation." Heb 9:11

    Anywho, they knew from Daniel's prophecy exactly when our Lord was coming; they just believed the Meshiach should have been a conquering king, rather than one to suffer...

    Joshua
     

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