My counter to this is prophecy itself. It seems futile to me to have this entire finished work with no way to decipher it. Through my studies I have determined that every single statement in scripture can be understood by applying other locations within. It's just understanding the connections that are the stepping stones, or making sure you don't in some cases. Scripture is clearly a path, with only one right answer, some take wrong turns very early, others down the way, but it seems scripture is written in a certain way that some in a certain time and place would allow scripture to explain itself, all the way down the path far enough to accomplish some work, or some responsibility. I'm not saying 100%, but far enough...

Let's take a new look at Dan 12:3 for a sec; "And those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever."

Can it not be said insight is a sliding scale, and not a light switch? I think we both agree on that, so.... Clearly the scripture says some will have insight in the time of the end, and what would that insight be about, the kingdom, spiritual matters, scripture?

Well you and I know now Dan 12:3 isn't talking about the Watchtower, so it's people in the future end time right? And what do they do with this insight?

Dan 11:33 "And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many."

They will be able to impart understanding to the "many", spiritual Israel. Now if they are imparting understanding, doesn't that sound different then what Daniel was doing or Isaiah, Jeremiah (as you mention)? If they were only given nuggets, then those in the end are imparting understanding...

Everything is in that book already, everything that will happen in the end to the completion of even the 1000 years. What need is there for new scrolls containing prophecy? The idea that new scrolls of prophecy or information is unfounded, the scrolls opened in Rev are the books of life and death, a metaphor for judgement. And the books being opened simply mean prophecy being fulfilled.

Daniel and previous prophets only needed pieces, it didn't belong to them to know the days and times, but what about those having "insight" in the end? What is that insight and understanding they impart to others? Well, obviously something no one has ever had in the past, apparently nothing no one has had up until they start imparting it, so the question is, how do they come about it?

Places like Amos, Dan, Zech with Joshua and Zerubabbel, Revelation, they all talk about individuals in the time of the end who have the responsibility to look over Jehovah's courtyard, and the Bible was written to them, these final ones who are to impart understanding.

In the end if Jehovah did give us new scrolls, and told us all about what the Bible says and means with prophecy and chronology, does that mean everyone will understand it then? Do you think the events unfolding will suddenly give people understanding of what prophecy means and says and be able to point it out in scripture? No.... It would still be very few, and probably only those who were very close to it already, but they would still need time, they would still have to take years studying the steps to determine how the answer gets there.

So it is my argument that the Bible is written the way it is because these concepts are very complex and takes individuals who are capable of understanding them many years to grasp, whether they are told the answer or not, they still have to determine how the answer is derived, and nothing anyone could say in the future will instantly give that knowledge to others, therefore a few would have had to already made that journey before the end, in order to be in a position to impart any kind of understanding of what is to come to the masses. It will be their jobs to impart that knowledge in the simplest form possible, IE ~ (E=MC2). A form that is small and compact that gives an understanding to all, but does nothing to show what steps it took to get there, because even if told, or prophecy fulfilled, very few would ever be able to follow all the steps in scripture to determine how that answer was derived.

An example is the Watchtower coming down. When it happens, the event will have past, but will mankind be able to point to the scripture and say, "Ah, there it is, we should have known all along."? No....

You know why I argue against your view, right?

Because I believe it's possible, and as well to have responsibilities during that time. What greater sacrifice could we make then to be part of those who will impart understanding to Gods people in the time of the end?

 

I'm not going to disagree with you completely, because I believe most likely somewhere in between both of our thoughts on this is probably right. But I think those refined by fire in the end will already believe in God, they will just need understanding of what's happening, and that is the chronology.

The chapters you mentioned:

 

Good job Cristo, you made a very important step, there's a reason there are two attacks. Dan 12:11 is telling us the time frame between the constant feature coming down and the disgusting thing being placed, there are two attacks.

Daniel 12:11 (CEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

"11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time the daily sacrifice is stopped to the setting up of the desolating monstrosity."

Daniel 12:11 (CEV) | In Context|Whole Chapter

"11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time that the daily sacrifices are stopped, until someone sets up the Horrible Thing." that causes destruction."

Daniel 12:11 (ERV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

"11 The daily sacrifice will be stopped. There will be 1290 days from that time until the time that the terrible thing that destroys is set up."

Daniel 12:11 (EXB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

"11 The ·daily [regular] sacrifice [8:12] will be ·stopped [turned away]. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, A blasphemous object that brings destruction [L the abomination of desolation; 11:31] will be set up."

Daniel 12:11 (NCV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

"11 The daily sacrifice will be stopped. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, a blasphemous object that brings destruction will be set up."

You see, they go into captivity when the constant feature is removed, and then 1290 days later the disgusting is placed when the 8th king will turn to kill Christs remaining brothers. They are conquered and taken into captivity before the abyssing, and attacked and killed after the abyssing.

 

No, you are mistaken. There are two attacks, the events in Rev 13 and 17 are not the same event. You need to reread my response.

 

Of course they are the same beast, but they are not speaking of the same moment, its impossible.

There is only one nation in Revelation that had previously existed that is mentioned alive again, Babylon. Babylon must be the deathstroke that is healed, period. Is it too much of a stretch to at least consider that deathstroke that healed could be that city? Name another nation that existed that we know was destroyed, but yet is mentioned by name in the end......

The deathstroke that was healed was Babylon period, there is no way to argue that away.

I don't know if you have ever read my chronology at Joshuastone7.com, but I have argued that the nations could not have gone into the abyss till after they came against the holy ones to conquer them in Rev 13. Which would mean that coming against the holy ones to conquer them occurs in between the death stroke, and the abyssing, and they come against the holy ones to kill them after the abyssing. They are two separate events.

In Dan 7:11,12 "I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking; I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season."

You see, the other beasts of the lion, bear and leopard give up their rulerships after the abyssing of the fierce beast in Dan 7, mirroring Rev 17:17; "For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished."

So if we recognize the time and season their lives are prolonged are the time period rule of Dan 12, Rev 12 of times, then you have 360+90, for Gen 8:22 denotes four seasons in a year, therefore a season would be a fourth of 360, then we get 450 days those beasts rule with the beast from the abyss.

This means it could not be from the abyss when it comes against the holy ones at the beginning of the 1260 days, because the day count does not allow it, if the abyssing occurs 450 days before their last day. Therefore the coming from the sea, with a single head healed cannot be the entire beast going in and out of the abyss in Rev 17.

We also have Dan 11:31 when the holy ones are attacked, but the final battle between north and south when north finally wins isn't till verse 40, again indicating the king of the north comes against the holy ones before the final battle and the rise of the final king.

I'm not sure why everyone is so animate that the healed death stroke from the sea is the abyssing, because if it isn't, it simply isn't. It's not our understanding or interpretation, we want to know what it actually says. We want to know the actual steps, our own understanding is irrelevant, and that means putting aside our own understandings at all times, allowing scripture only to explain itself...

The beasts are the same in Rev 13 and 17 but two different time periods. Only one head has a deathstroke healed in Rev 13, and the whole beast goes into the abyss in 17. The sea and abyss are not the same, and the only nation alive in the end that was alive but destroyed in the past is Babylon.

Besides, the deciding factor is the chronology, and it says they are not the same instance in time...

 

Let me try and narrow down my response again, to make it easier to understand.

The constant feature being removed begins the 42 months/1260 days the nations trample the courtyard.

Rev 11:2 "But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months."

This is the constant feature that is removed in Dan 12;

Dan 12:11 "And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days."

Now Dan 12 tells us clearly there are two attacks, look;

Dan 12:7 "It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.”

We see there that the dashing of the holy people to pieces will carry on through the 1260 days, and this starts the 42months/1260 days when the courtyard is trampled. Then after the 1260 days these two witnesses are physically killed when they finish their witnessing work, clearly showing an attack to start the 1260 days of trampling, and a death of the holy ones after.

Rev 13:5-7 "And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it. And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them"

Rev 11:7 "When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them."

Again, we see clearly these ones preach in sackloth at the beginning of their work because of the nations coming against the constant feature and removing it, and then attacking them to kill them at the end.

Therefore, when we read Dan 12:11 and read there are 1290 days between the constant feature being removed, and the disgusting thing being placed, we are being told that the disgusting thing will be placed 30 days after the 1260 days end. That means the 1290 and 1260 begin on the same day and the 1290 run on 30 days after the 1260.

There is a conquering at the beginning of the 1260 days, and a killing after the 1290th day.

And as I mentioned in my previous post that the wild beast goes into the abyss in between these two events. That's why Rev 13 talks about them being conquered before the abyssing (starting the 1260 days), and yet killed after the abyssing in Rev 11 (after the 1260 days end).

 

The first would be Babylon/Babel. That city was in Shinar at the sight of Babel, Babylon is Babel.

But I also said don't hold me to this, it's a difficult question, and I don't know the whole answer to it. It could very well start with Egypt then Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Medo-Persia, Rome. Again, I currently don't know, and it was just an opinionated guess to have Babel first.

 

You do realize that Babel is Babylon, right? It's the same city. Just because Israel fell to them has nothing to do with Babylon being one of the heads. Your notion that Israel has anything to do with the seven heads is not supported in the text.

So?

And besides, it existed before and after, but I'm not sure how that has any effect on the seven heads according to scripture.

I assure you Gods people existed at the time of Babel, and those who worshiped him. Which means again, the idea that each head must have effected Israel is not supported in the text in any way.

You realize that what you just said there is a presumption right? There is nothing in the text anywhere that says that each of the seven heads would have influence over Gods people.

Number one, the beast comes out of the sea in Rev 13, just like the beasts in Dan 7. That is what is called a direct connection. If Dan 7 and Rev 13 can be connected in such a definite way, why didn't Jesus connect Rev 17 in the exact same way? He didn't...

Also, It is only one head that is slaughtered and recovered in Rev 13, not the whole beast as we see in Rev 17.

"And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death"

The beast comes out of the abyss in Rev 17, not the sea. And it is the entire beast that comes out of the abyss, not just one of it's heads.

So let's see, my argument shows without a doubt the beasts are shown coming from completely different places. The first beast only has a wound to one head that's healed, but yet the whole beast is seen coming out of the abyss in Rev 17.

Clearly Dan 7 can be directly connected with Rev 13 because it speaks of the exact same beasts coming from the exact same location, the sea. Yet Rev 17 for some reason says it's coming from a completely different location, why? Because that is when it goes into and out of the abyss, obviously because that's what it says.

You know there are two attacks. The two witnesses have to start their preaching work when the beast comes against them for 42 months;

Rev 11:3 "I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.”

This occurs because the nations will trample on the courtyard during this time when the constant feature is removed.

So what happens when they end their preaching???;

Rev 11:7 "When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them."

This moment is 42 months after they began their preaching work when the constant feature was removed and they started preaching in sackloth, while the courtyard was trampled on for 42 months.

So the constant feature is seen being removed, and courtyard trampled for 42 months first in Rev 13;

Rev 13:5 "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months."

Then we are told the beast that comes out of the abyss attacks them to kill them 42 months later at Rev 11:7 when they lay in the streets for three and a half days. Which those days cannot be connected to any other time period, and they stand alone.

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But, that's not how we know for sure these two events are not the same, even though nothing about the two events have any kind of connection, I can show you that it is impossible for these two events to be the same. Because it all comes down to when that beast goes into the abyss.

Dan 7:11,12 "I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking; I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season."

The beast goes into the abyss, and the other beasts give their power to the wild beast at this moment;

Rev 17:12,13 "The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast. These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast."

As well this is the same moment of the fifth bowl;

Rev 16:10 "The fifth one poured out his bowl on the throne of the wild beast. And its kingdom became darkened, and they began to gnaw their tongues because of their pain,"

As well since the bowls and trumpets are the same event, the fifth trumpet shows us the abyss being opened;

Rev 9:1 "The fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key to the shaft of the abyss was given to him."

Now, what was that absolute proof I promised you to tell you that there is no way this abyssing could have been before the 42 months began? Because the other beasts give their power to the beast, after it is killed, and this occurs a time a season before the end of their own lives.

So you caught that right? A time=360 days, a season=90 days (Gen 8:22), therefore if you add 360+90 you get 450 days. And why is that important? Because that is a whole lot smaller number then 1260 days/42 months.

The other beasts give their power to the 8th king when the beast goes into the abyss 450 days before their own final demise, and this is far short then the 1260 days the two witnesses preach.

You would be better off focused on Dan 4 and the tree that was cut down and the stump banded in order to find the head that was slaughtered but healed. What is the only city in Revelation that was one of the heads, that we know was destroyed but yet is alive again in the end???? Babylon, and anyone who tries to deny that obviously Babylon is that head that was slaughtered and healed is not thinking objectively.

 

This is not true, the timeline of the Bible does not need the identity of the seven heads. The timeline I have presented does not need to understand Egypt or even Babel as the head, it has nothing to do with it, and is not based on either.

The moment the beast goes into the abyss and the other beasts give up their rulership is what is important, and that is 450 days before the end of the other beasts rulership, and that number is shorter then the 1260 days. That in itself tells us the beast comes against Gods people and removes the constant feature and the beginning of the two witnesses preaching in Rev 13 with the deathstroke already healed, and then that beast goes into the abyss and out, and after that it turns against the two witnesses and kills them when they lay in the street three and a half days.

None of this is "assumptions" as you mentioned, it's all there in the text.

Just so you know, I believe the statue in Dan 2 and the beasts in Dan 7 are simply maps that tell us about multiple fulfillment's of each, and this is the point I present my opinion. But keep in mind Cristo, none of this information is needed to understand the timeline. The timeline of when the beast goes into the abyss compared to when the two witnesses begin their work and then killed is completely independent, and is definite in the text, but as to the 7 heads I present my opinion.

 

And a followup:

I'm surprised you would say you don't want to spend time exploring the line of reasoning I presented, how else could you discount that I am right, without researching? Who knows, you might learn something, I certainly do when I listen to others and trace their steps.

As to the other objection you brought up about the lion and Babylon I didn't address in my last post, here you go; Babel has been depicted with the sign of lions well before Nebuchadnezzar and Neo-Babylonia, going all the way back to Nimrod and the tower of Babel.

Nimrod:



Nimrod:



Nimrod: