Authentication. The Bible is an integrated message from outside of space-time; and therefore, Jehovah is authenticating the information for us. It allows us to directly connect Daniel 7 and 8, providing a basis to trust Revelation and it's connection to the established prophet Daniel, as well as the statue in Daniel 2. Without 13:1, we would be throwing darts at a dartboard in the dark So Rev 13:1 authenticates WHO the beast is, and gives us a basis to interpret the prophecies by connecting the dots of the prophetic order. This frees us from having to speculate: the beast out of the sea is the active 'element' (1 of 7 empires) of the Daniel 2 statue, the iron-clay. This is not speculation, as I've stressed, this is connecting dots. Daniel 7 and 8 spell out the identify of these beasts explicitly (why?); Revelation 13 is shading in details. This is why Rev 13:1 is extremely important as an authentication system, it gives us the basis for identifying the beast without needing to 'understand current events'. I contend to you that "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things." 2 Peter 1:20 (NIV) is telling us that the Bible interprets itself.. speculation and anti-types are not required, Jehovah revealed it from the beginning to the end in totality!
Okay, let's try this... Answer this for me. Rev 17:8 "The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss," Rev 13:1 "And it stood still on the sand of the sea. And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea," Rev 13:3 "I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed" You claim when the angel reminded John of the beast he saw, and that these instances he saw were different time periods, correct? So you are saying the angel didn't mean the beast as he saw it in verse 3, but only the beast as it was in verses 1 and 2, because the beast in verse 3 is no longer the same as it was in verses 1 and 2.... Right? So how do you know which saw the angel was talking about, if you say they were different time periods, and the beast didn't have the death stroke in verses 1 and 2 then, how do you know the angel wasn't talking about the beast as John saw it at Rev 13:3? How do you know which saw the angel was talking about? Then in what form does the beast act 42 months, in it's verse 1 form or verse three? This is just all rediculious. Considering John is not desscribing the beast as he sees it coming for the sea in verse 3 is beyond what is written. If it is "about" to ascend out of the abyss, that means it hasn't yet, John sees a healed wound in 13. Rev 17 says it has not been raised form the abyss at that time. The beast John sees had already been healed in 13, but Rev 17 says the beast he sees isnt healed yet and is about to come out of the abyss, meaning it hasn't yet at that point. I sometimes wonder of this DB's purpose, but I guess the angels words to Daniel still apply at this moment in that the scroll will remain sealed until the end. There seems nothing one can do to open eyes until Jehovah wills it.
Good questions Josh, and they must all be asked, otherwise what are we doing? (that, IMO, is the purpose of the DB) I don't know for certain what John meant when he 'saw', ... I have a framework, which may be completely wrong. My basic argument is quite simple: the Bible interprets itself, and doesn't require us to speculate about anti-type fulfillment. This makes sense to me. The empires are spelled out explicitly: Babylon -> Persia -> Greece -> Rome (Daniel 7 extrapolation) -> Iron-Clay (Daniel 2 extrapolation) -> Eighth King (Daniel 7, 8 and Revelation 13, 17, 18 extrapolation) Perhaps the WTBS has made me skeptical of extra-biblical frameworks... maybe that means I'm blind, I don't know, but I see no possible interpretation of history where-by the death-stroke has happened.
Fatal stroke to the 6th king! Wikipedia "Britannia is an ancient term for Roman Britain and also a female personification of the island. The name is Latin, and derives from the Greek form Prettanike or Brettaniai, which originally designated a collection of islands with individual names, including Albion or Great Britain; however, by the 1st century BC Britannia came to be used for Great Britain specifically. In AD 43 the Roman Empire began its conquest of the island, establishing a province they called Britannia, which came to encompass the parts of the island south of Caledonia (roughly Scotland). The native Celtic inhabitants of the province are known as the Britons. In the 2nd century, Roman Britannia came to be personified as a goddess, armed with a trident and shield and wearing a Corinthian helmet." Wikipedia "The immediate postwar years were harsh—the Age of Austerity. The national treasury was nearly bankrupt and depended on loans and grants from the United States. The first priority had to go to rebuilding the burned out cities, restoring the export industries, and recovering national pride and hope for the future. The Labour Party won a surprise landslide in 1945. Under prime minister Clement Attlee, it promised a planned economy that would use every power of the national government to plan the economy in order to guarantee full employment, enlarge the welfare state, return to prosperity, and achieve greater equality, but it lost India in 1947 and gave up nearly all the rest of the Empire by 1960. The final major decision was the turning over of Hong Kong to China in 1997" "Britain was almost bankrupt as a result of the war and yet was still maintaining a global empire, a huge air force and conscript army, in an attempt to remain a global power. When the U.S. suddenly and without warning cut off Lend lease fund in September 1945, bankruptcy loomed. The government pleaded for help and secured a low-interest $3.75 billion loan from the U.S." Fatal stroke healed/Formation of the 7th king!/Iron and clay/2nd beast from the earth of Rev 13 Wikipedia "The Anglo-American Loan Agreement[1] was a post World War II loan made to the United Kingdom by the United States on 15 July 1946, and paid off 29 December 2006.[2] The loan was negotiated by John Maynard Keynes on behalf of the United Kingdom from the United States and Canada at the end of World War II.[3] Historian Alan Sked has commented that, "the U.S. didn't seem to realize that Britain was bankrupt", and that the loan was "denounced in the House of Lords, but in the end the country had no choice."[3] America offered $US 3.75bn (US$57 billion in 2014) and Canada contributed another US$1.19 bn (US$16 billion in 2014), both at the rate of 2% annual interest.[8] With the interest instead of paying the original loan amount the United Kingdom ended up paying a total of $7.5bn (£3.8bn) to the US and US$2 bn (£1bn) to Canada."
By deduction, this is happening currently, if 1946 was the healing of the death-stroke: and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 4 And they worshipped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it? How are people worshiping the US-UK? Seems that the rest of the world hates 'us'. Anyone with a political bent of any sort towards the US-UK are now condemned for eternity? How are people worshiping the dragon? The US has effectively lost Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya - apparently a bunch of desert people with rifles can do battle with the resurrected beast? Similarly: "It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast" How have people been misled? (other than the same misleading since man rejected Jehovah's sovereignty) I see more anti-US-UK rhetoric now than EVER before; hardly worship or misleading, more like complete rejection of the 'beast'. I presume your framework is looking for a future 42 months - but aren't you making the same interpretive shift in the timelines between the death-stroke and 42 months that I'm suggesting exists between 13:1-2 and 13:3 ?
You forget, I've mentioned it many times. The first beast of Rev 13 is the UN. Yes, all countries must abide by the UN charters or they face consiquences. Every time something happens in the world a security council meeting is called and NATO goes into action. You tell me who could do battle with the UN backed by the armies of the four permanent members. (Three counting Anglo-America as one) Again it's the first beast that is the UN, it's the second beast from the earth with the two horns that is Anglo-America. Anglo-America makes sure all other countries worship the first beast. Keep in mind, the only way to receive the mark of the beast right now would be those who become members or might join as an NGO. Sound familiar? In the future once the 7th beast looses it's throne and the UN comes out of the abyss like the phoenix, then anyone personally will be able to receive the mark. Do you know anything about this room in the UN headquarters? Do you know what it is, and what it's for? There is no doubt that just about every leader in every major country wants a one world government and worship Satan. Do any youtube search on the subject. Click on this short video right below for a very simple answer. Listen to the end, it's only a minute long... [video=youtube_share;nTx2fWSoVVI]http://youtu.be/nTx2fWSoVVI[/video] Rev 13:13; "And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind." These were the two atomic bombs dropped on Japan in 1945. You bet the world followed America after that. Anglo-America become the 7th world power! Anglo-America misleads the whole inhabited earth by saying they are trying to bring democracy to other countries, but all they really want is one world government and to rule the world. It was the physical land that Rockefeller gave for the buildings that were set up as the image of the beast in New York. It is the physical image of that beast, it's what we see of it. Again your mistaken, it's the UN that is the first beast that is worshiped. I would have to say no, because the time frame you speak of is under the definition of John seeing the image as it comes from the sea. The 42 months are "given" to the beast, this "given" denotes it would have to be after it's creation since it is not seen with it already from it's creation. In verse 4 it says people are speaking about the beast, that means after it's creation. It is not until after these ones speak about the beast is the beast given the authority to act 42 months, therefore this authority was given after it's creation and after John originally saw it.
Correct me where I'm wrong. In 1946 the UN rose out of the sea, one of it's heads, the UK, had been mortally wounded. A loan from the USA healed the head, and the UK-US became the 2-headed lamb from the earth. So the first beast (UN) contains the second beast (US-UK). Basically two of the heads are working together to constitute their own beast? At some future time (what event is this? the 7th loses it's throne how?) the UN will become fully empowered and the US-UK will fabricate an image of the UN. Now the 42 months begin, and the UN / UK-US / image wage war on the holy ones. Am I on so far?
This is a time change to after it does come from the abyss, it says at Rev 13:6 "it opens it's mouth against God", and that hasn't happened yet, and this is also after the 42 months. "And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven." This scripture also talks about blaspheming those residing in heaven, now that happens after the Holy Spirit is poured out and the John class are transfigured, and those in Christ raised, and that is after the beast emerges from the abyss. Then the next scripture says; "It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation." "It was permitted" means after everything that has occurred before this moment. This alone tells you that when it received the death stroke and healed it did not have authority over the world, it wasn't given it till this point in Rev 13:7. That alone is proof that the death stroke in verse 3 is not when it became the Eighth king... As you see it's given it's power over the whole world well after it's creation from the sea. Keep in mind, this beast in Rev 13 is the same beast in Rev 17, just at different times. Besides you wouldn't even need for those scriptures to be a time jump to after it emerges from the abyss. Even today every nation has to answer to the UN, every nation worships it by running to it with every problem in the world. And as they lie about their humanitarian missions, they slowly take over the world. Name any major country that does not run to the UN to fix world problems? Yes the world countries worship the UN today, and when the UN becomes the Eighth king all of humanity will, besides followers of Christ of course. This is no different then receiving the mark of the beast, in order to receive it now you need to be an NGO or member, then later after the UN emerges from the abyss that will be extended to the masses. The world worshiping the UN can be seen as a type and anti-type, just like the mark of the beast is... The identities of each of the parts of the immense image in Dan 2 and beasts in Dan 7 have continued on until today. Like I've said before, the head of gold was Babylon in Dan 2, the lion in Dan 7 was Babylon, the lion in Rev 13 is Babylon. I could get into the identities of the others but I wrote a whole thread on it and it would take a lot of space here. The first beast in Rev 13 is made up of many nations, each beast and horn are all part of the whole, known as the United Nations. I've said before SinglCell, the reason the chronology has to be this way is because of the 42 months. If it weren't for that I would be right on board with you. The Eighth king only lives for 15 months, so there's no way the first beast in Rev 13 can be the Eighth king at that moment, the Eighth king comes to be and the 7th goes down after the 42 months begin according to Daniel. Besides, Rev confirms the chronology anyway.
Yes Yes Yes, Anglo-America is the 7th head. Rome/Britain is the sixth. Iron and clay continue together to the end. Both sit at the same table as an unworkable union. (Dan 11:27) They are the current ruling head of the seven heads, but the beasts like the lion, leopard, bear and horns are other countries that exist today. The ten horns are the ten non-members of the current UN and those ten will become permanent members when the UN becomes the Eighth king. Rev 17:12 "The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast" And as for the rest of the beasts in the collection when it rises from the abyss?; Dan 7:12 "But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season." The 7th world power losses it's throne here; Dan 7:11 “I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking; I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire." Rev 16:10 "The fifth one poured out his bowl on the throne of the wild beast. And its kingdom became darkened, and they began to gnaw their tongues because of their pain," Rev 9:1,2 "The fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key to the shaft of the abyss was given to him. He opened the shaft of the abyss" This will be for any number of reasons. Most likely an economy collapse. I'm guessing China's housing bubble, or something similar. The image has already been created. It's the buildings in New York. It's the physical location of the UN itself. The second beast of Rev 13 has already created the image. Your still missing Daniel 12:11... There are two comings against gods people. The constant feature is removed and then 1290 days later the disgusting thing is placed. The 1290 days was the time the courtyard was encircled in 66 and in the end that will be when the WTS goes down. "Eliezar ben Hanania (Hebrew: אלעזר בן חנניה; Ancient Greek: Ἐλεάζαρος υἱὸς Ἀνανία) was a Jewish leader during the Great Revolt of Judea. Eliazar was the son of the High Priest Hanania ben Nedebai and hence a political figure of the 1st century Judaea Province. Eliazar was the governor of the temple [1] at the outbreak of the rebellion in 66 CE and following the initial outbreak of the violence in Jerusalem convinced the priests of the Jewish Temple to stop service of sacrifice for the Emperor. The action, though largely symbolic, was one of the main milestones to bring a full-scale rebellion in Judea." Now once the WTS goes down 1290 days later the Eighth king comes against the holy ones to physically kill them, that's what occurred in 70 CE and will occur in the end. The next thing in time we are looking for is the 2300 days to start, then 965 days later the 42 months start, the Eighth king will stand in a holy place to kill the holy ones 30 days after the 42 months end. The 42 months begin 885 days before the first beast in Rev 13 goes into the abyss. The Eighth king will only be on earth 450 days before the first day of the new world.
Hi Joshua: There are clear differences between the beast in Revelation 17 and the one in Revelation 13 which cannot be ignored without misunderstanding it's meaning. I will focus on just a couple for now so as to avoid too much confusion. In Revelation 17 there is no mention of the beast either "coming up out of the sea" or the "earth" for that matter, so this beast is already in existence when John sees it in vision. Also, the 10 horns that are mentioned do not have any diadems or crowns, so this vision clearly precedes the vision in Revelation 13 in which the 10 crowns do have diadems and are clearly ruling with the beast during it's last hour. Since the beast in Revelation 17 clearly already exists when John sees it in vision, then the time when this beast originally comes up "out of the sea" of mankind was missed and is not included in the vision. This means that the coming up "our of the sea" in Revelation 13 must be after the "death blow" and is not portraying the origination of this beast, but is the fulfillment of the statement "beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is". Revelation 17:8b . Young's Literal Translation. This means that the "coming up out of the sea" mentioned in Revelation 13 has to be after the death blow that is still to come. We will then see a 7 headed 10 horned beast where the 10 horns have diadems (crowns) and rule with the beast for it's last hour. Unless of course you think that the beasts last hour has been from 1945, which would be 70 years. Almost sounds too Watchtowery to be true. The "death blow" to the beast from Revelation 17 will be the same as the stone from Daniel 2 that brings down the large image when it hits it's "feet", but the image of Daniel 2 cannot be the same as the beast of Revelation 13 and 17. Therefore, the beast of Revelation 13 and 17 is a beast that existed in two time periods. One, in the end of the first century when the true christian congregation was being and had been corrupted by unfaithful men pretending to be members of Jesus Bride, or faithful members of that bride that had gone bad. These became the Catholic Church which rode the beast of the Roman empire during John's time as we know that the Apostacy was already in full bloom at that time. In our day, the beast from Revelation 13 and 17 can only be the U.N. . The vision starts in 1964 or shortly before the Catholic Church started it's ride again "officially" by becoming a permanent non-voting member of the U.N. . It ends with the destruction of the U.N. by the Kingdom of God throught the efforts of Jesus/Michael and the rest of the Kingdom. Remember Daniel 2 says that Jesus conquers "these kings", which can only be the 10 kings which represent the 10 horns with diadems that only happen after coming up "out of the sea" which is after the "death blow" that is still to come. The U.N. will become the eighth king, but only after the image of Daniel 2 is destroyed, not by God's Kingdom as it clearly destroys the U.N. and the 10 kings, but by the demons who have been cast out of heaven and are in clear control right now and are ready to spring their plan of total domination on the earth. So, the image of Daniel two represents 7 kingdoms (not 8) and they are clearly Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Anglo/America. The eighth beast has to come after the image of Daniel is destroyed but before the end. This can only be fulfilled if the beast of Revelation is the U.N. first in Revelation 17 with the Catholic Church riding it and giving it direction from 1964 onwards, then the U.N. of Revelation 13 that is without the Catholic Church riding and directing it, but now with the 10 kings, who take part in the total devastation of the Catholic Church and all her daughters. It is the U.N. with the 10 kings in control that Jesus does battle with and destroys, not the U.N. with the Catholic Church riding. When the last part of the image of Daniel 2 is brought down (which will be by a false flag attack perpetuated by the Anglo/Americans themselves) this will be the end of the image of Daniel 2. This will also be the "lighting of the fuse" of WWIII or what could become WWIII. This will be the death blow to the U.N. that exists now (the U.N. that "is") then for a short time the U.N. will not officially exist, because how can you have an international organization whose only real purpose is to keep the peace, when you are in the midst of a WW? This will be the time period however long that the U.N. will be "is not". Then the beasts of Daniel 7 will make their power play for domination, but ultimately they will see the need to reconstitute the U.N. as that will be seen as the only hope for mankind and that will be when the U.N. (the eighth beast) will "be again", but only for a very short time until it's destruction by the Kingdom when the 10 kings who are now ruling with the U.N. (for the last hour) in the absence of the woman rider. frank
The beauty (and frustration) of this is that I see both Joshua and Frank's framework. A slight reading variation can change the entire outcome of our thinking. They are internally consistent, make sense, and yet we all read this different ways. Pretty cool really, and no, I have nothing of value to add We should each write a 'framework' where there is a quick summary in the first post, and proofs in subsequent posts, then we can separate out the thoughts instead of getting them lost in page after page of this discussion!
That makes no sense what so ever. Rev 17 says the beast John saw enters the abyss and is about to come out of it. It exists before the abyssing, clearly. Saying scripture doesn't show us John seeing the beast before this is ridiculous. Why would the angel bring up a vision that John would not have recorded? The reason they don't have diadems is because when the 7th king loses it's throne and the Eighth king takes over they lose their rulerships. Dan 7:12 "But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season." Wrong, because John never sees the beast before the death stroke. The angel clearly states he's talking about a beast John has seen before. Which means before going into the abyss. Clearly the angel is talking about the beast John sees in Rev 13 when talking about the beast that is created from the sea and later going into the abyss. The angel in Rev 17 clearly says John sees the beast before it's abyssing and Jehovah would not just leave out the description of John seeing it, if he mentions John saw it. That's ridiculous, and adding to what is not there. Besides, Babylon is the lion of the beast in Rev 13 and it's turned on in Rev 17. I will get into that more later. You have lost your path my brother... Everyone always tries to understand Revelation by letting it explain itself. I've been saying over and over that until you understand Daniel you will never understand the chronology of Revelation. It is the map for it, and I am going to address that to my reply to SingleCell. The coming out of the sea is the first time John sees this beast. That's when it was created... Now, John sees that beast with a healed fatal wound, and yes it comes from the sea with that healed wound. Now, the angel in Rev 17 reminds John of the beast he "saw", and how did he see this beast? It came from the sea with a healed fatal stroke. If you want Revelation to explain itself, that is what it is saying. Now if your trying to say the 7th king will go down and Eighth king set up before the 42 months begin you will try any way you can to explain how the first beast in Rev becomes the Eighth king before the 42 months begin. But there's a problem with that. Daniel says the 42 months begin before the 7th king goes down and the Eighth king is set up. The 42 months begin before the the Eighth king comes onto the world scene....... I don't want to go into that further here, I'm going to get into that in response to Singlecell here in a bit. I don't mean to sound mean or anything Frank, but I'm saying this as a brother. No one sides with you on this. The stone that strikes the feet of the immense image is not the Eighth king or demons, or any earthly government, it is the kingdom of God. Dan 2:44,45; "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever, just as you saw that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the copper, the clay, the silver, and the gold." Also, Jesus stated well at Math 12:25,26; "Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand?" That is the end all of the end all, you must throw that idea away Frank.... These beasts identities have not changed over the years. Babylon is the head of gold in Dan 2, the lion in Dan 7, the lion in Rev 13, the harlot in Rev 17. This is how Jehovah gives you the information to interpret prophecy. The bible explains itself. Every beast in Dan 7 mirrors in order those in Dan 2, every beast in Rev 13 mirrors those in Dan 7. It is how Jehovah allows scripture to be interpreted. Again more on this later. The Catholic church is not a member of the UN, the Holy See is... There is a difference and very big one. The Holy See has been around for two thousand years and can be traced back to taking over for Babylonia. Again, if you look it up, the Catholic church is not a member of the UN, the Holy See is, big difference. Again, you have it backwards. The ten horns are the current ten non-members of the UN, they lose their diadems once they hand them over to the Eighth king when it comes from the abyss. The moment Michael battles with Satan and casts him out of heaven is a very difficult moment to pin down in scripture, and trust me it hasn't happened yet. Again, It is clearly Gods kingdom that crushes the image in Dan 2, there is simply no if and or buts around that period. Wrong, you miss the angels words here; Rev 17:11 "And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction." The beast itself will be the Eighth king, and it will still only have 7 heads. It is the beast as John sees it, and it will also include the seventh head, there will be no Eighth head. Both the false prophet and the beast are destroyed together. That is the UN and Anglo-America. The beast that John sees is itself also the Eighth king. The point is, the angel says the beast you say (with seven heads) it itself is also an Eighth king. It is the same identity as the beast in Rev 13, it is made up of the beasts of Dan 7, and it equals the beast in Dan 2. You are trying to force the idea that the 7th king goes down before the Watchtower/42 month/1260 days begin. That's what all of this is about. You and many others have this idea that this has to happen first. Even Robert thinks so. I'm here to tell you that the 'four winds" that the angels are holding back, is WWIII. The moment you want to know is when do they let them go? I'm going answer SingleCell now and include you in my post because I think we need to move another direction.
SingleCell and Frank, We can do this until now into eternity. What I do know is that Daniel is the map to understand Revelation. Without understanding each scripture of Daniel, one will never be able to understand the chronology of Revelation. So, what I propose is that we move this discussion over to Daniel and start from the very beginning. I don't know if it will bring a common understanding between us. I don't even know how effective it might be, but one thing I do know is, without knowing the exact days between each of these events we are discussing, you will never know which event comes before or after another. So if you both agree I will start off where my research began so many years ago in Daniel and we can start from ground zero. We can stay here on this thread or I can start a new one. What say you?
Hi Joshua: I have updated and edited my commentaries on Revelation 17 and 13. Read them, you may learn something that you have not seen before. I doubt it, but if you keep an open mind, you never know. Oh, and by the way, your understanding of Revelation must also apply to the Congregations in the first century as that was who the Revelation was first given to and would be fulfilled for. If it doesn't fit the first century fulfillment then you need to rework it my brother. Revelation 17 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls+ came and said to me: “Come, I will show you the judgment on the great prostitute who sits on many waters,+ with whom the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality,*+ and earth’s inhabitants were made drunk with the wine of her sexual immorality.â€* (So, this vision is showing the U.N. already in existence and will include in it statements that will apply in reality only after it comes up out of the abyss as recorded in Revelation 13 as we will see) + And he carried me away in the power of the spirit into a wilderness. And I saw a woman (this “woman†represents someone who at one time represented a covenant with God as women often do in scripture) sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads (this will be the seven Secretary/Generals that exist from the beginning of this vision in Revelation 17 to it’s destruction as recorded in Revelation 13) and ten horns (but no mention of diadems or crowns, as the horns are not ruling as yet. This could very well be a picture of the 10 temporary, non-binding-voting members of the U.N. Security Council which appear to be a part of the beast but have no “real†power as yet, and only serve for a short time and are replaced by 10 different nations). The woman was clothed in purple+ and scarlet, and she was adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls,+ and she had in her hand a golden cup (this is the cup of the New Covenant which they continue to drink even though it holds no meaning for them anymore, now that they are unfaithful and considered harlots or whores) that was full of disgusting things and the unclean things of her sexual immorality.* On her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes+ and of the disgusting things of the earth.†(This cannot be all of false religion(“Babylon the Greatâ€) because then there could be no daughters which is implied when the term MOTHER of the Harlots is used, so this is the Catholic Church which started in the first century from false first new covenant saints joining with the roman rule as the catholic church. They were at one time a part of the Bride of Christ but no longer are as they have traded that in for power with the beast) (they accepted Satan’s offer to bow down before him in worship in exchange for “worldly powerâ€) saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.+ Well, on seeing her I was greatly amazed. So the angel said to me: “Why is it that you were amazed? I will tell you the mystery of the woman+ and of the wild beast that is carrying her and that has the seven heads and the ten horns: ( This explanation will span both Rev. 17 and 13) + The wild beast that you saw (in this part of the revelation) was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss( as recorded in Revelation 13, so this is talking about the latter part of this beast that still has the woman riding it but will soon be “is not†and then as pictured in Revelation 13 “is about to ascend out of the abyssâ€),+ and it is to go off into destruction (the vision of the beast coming out of the abyss will “go off into destruction at Armageddon) And the inhabitants of the earth—those whose names have not been written in the scroll of life+ from the founding of the world—will be amazed when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present. (Again this is talking about the beast that is coming from Revelation 13) “This calls for a mind* that has wisdom: The seven heads+ mean seven mountains (administrations, (Secretary’s General), where the woman sits on top (with the Catholic Church as a permanent non –voting but observing member of the U.N. Since March of 1964). And there are seven kings: Five have fallen ( U Thant from ’62 to’71, Kurt Waldheim from ’72-81, Javier Perez de Cuellar from ’82-to ‘91, Boutros Boutros Ghali from ’92 to ’96, Kofi Annon from ’97 to ‘2006.) one is (Ban Ki-Moon from 2007 to present), and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive (after the death blow of the current U.N., and after it’s reformation) , he must remain a short while (the U.N. morphs into the 8th King which will be the fourth beast of Daniel 7 with this eighth king, Secretary General on top). And the wild beast that was (as seen in Revelation 17) but is not (because of the “death blow†that is coming but is the same as the “rock†that destroys the image of Daniel 2),+ it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, (after it is reformed after it comes back up out of the abyss following the “death blowâ€) and it goes off into destruction.(by means of the kingdom of Christ and his Bride at Armageddon). “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom (as portrayed in Revelation 17, but eventually will as seen in Revelation 13) (this is how they are portrayed in Revelation 17 as horns, but without diadems or crowns, so before the “death blow†they have no kingdom), but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast (so the time period between the “death blow†and Armageddon will be very short, like one hour when the 10 nations that now have no “real†power as a part of the U.N. security council will apparently gain more power, as such). These (the 10 kings, 10 horns with diadems as portrayed in Revelation 13) have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. These (the 10 kings) will battle with the Lamb (it is the 10 kings who battle with the lamb, not the seventh king of the image in Daniel 2 so the “rock†out of the mountain not with hands does not destroy the 10 kings but only destroys the image of Daniel) (YLT Dn 2:44 'And in the days of these kings (10 kings of Revelation 13) raise up doth the God of the heavens a kingdom that is not destroyed-) ,+ but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings,+ the Lamb will conquer them. (the 10 kings of Rev. 13) + Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.â€+ He said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.*+ And the ten horns+ that you saw and the wild beast,+ these will hate the prostitute+ and will make her devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire.(shortly after the “death blow†the reformed U.N. and it’s new security council will not be as nice to the Catholic Church and the Vatican as they were when they had no real power in Revelation 17) (as we can see, she will be vanquished by the U.N. and the 10 kings (which has not happened yet ) (probably in favor of some “one world religionâ€.)+ For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought,+ yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast,+ until the words of God will have been accomplished (this is the part In Ezekial where they are dragged by a hook in their jaws to the final battle, they think that they will have permanent power but it will be for only a prophetic “hour†. And the woman+ whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.†Revelation 13 And it* (should be translated “I†not it) stood still on the sand of the sea (the “sand of the sea†represents those that have made a decision as to what they believe in regards to spiritual things. There are the “sands of the sea†which are Abraham’s seed which are all those with faith in God (YLT Gn 32:12 and Thou--Thou hast said, I certainly do good with thee, and have set thy seed as the sand of the sea, which is not numbered because of the multitude.') and then there are all those that have no faith but follow some other philosophy that is more in line with Satan YLT Re 20:8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them together to war, of whom the number is as the sand of the sea ). And I saw a wild beast+ ascending out of the sea (this is the U.N. after the “death blow†to come coming out of the “sea†of mankind that have not made a decision yet but are in fear of the coming WWIII or WWIII that is already happening),+ with ten horns and seven heads (just as the beast in Rev. 17), and on its horns ten diadems,*(the horns here, unlike in Rev. 17 are now ruling as king’s or will do so shortly with the wild beast) but on its heads blasphemous names (the names of the seven Secretary’s General that rule in opposition of God) . 2 Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard (the BRIC’s nations), but its feet were like those of a bear (the Russian Bear on it’s own, independent of it’s participation in the BRIC’s) , and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth (the Anglo/American Power or what is left of it) (These are the first three beasts of Daniel 7 that do a political, financial, military power dance for control after “the death blow†but before the coming of the “fourth beast†which they morph into when they realize the necessity for such a beast and that they cannot save the earth from disaster without coming together) . And the dragon+ gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority. (Like he tried to do to Christ Jesus) + 3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded (this would represent the head of Ban Ki Moon who ran the U.N. before the “death blowâ€), but its mortal wound had been healed,+ and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. (This will be the first time that all the earth follows the U.N. with admiration due to fear of an existing WWIII or one that is imminent at this point) 4 And they worshipped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?†(Certainly this will be true when the militaries of the nations of China, Russia and the Anglo Americans come together as one, it is not true of the U.N. that exists now) 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months.+(perhaps this is in real time or perhaps this is a flashback to it’s 42 months of control before the “death blow†and shortly after, I don’t know? But I do know why it is granted 42 months!) 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies+ against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven.+ ( to my knowledge it has not done this yet) 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,+ and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue* and nation. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life+ of the Lamb who was slaughtered.+ 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.+ 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword,* he must be killed with the sword.+ This is where it calls for endurance+ and faith+ on the part of the holy ones. (This is where we are to be absolutely “no part of the world†being in captivity with the rest and it, we will obey God as ruler and observe his commandments and his alone, not Caesars, and it also means that this is not a time for us to take up arms in order to change the world, or we will die doing so, we must be a nation unto ourselves and a nation of peace) + 11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth (Ascending out of the earth is different, this is not from the “sea†of mankind washing about, but is from the established political systems of the “earthâ€) , and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon (This I think will be a combination of the BRIC’s and the Anglo/American’s who will politic for the formation of the “image of the beastâ€, which is the fourth incarnation of beasts from Daniel 7, they will say that in order to save the world the gov’t must take control of everything and will in the most totalitarian way, it will appear to be good like a lamb (this is to bring “peace and securityâ€)but will speak very harshly and controllingly).+ 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast+ in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. (The reformed U.N.) + 13 And it (the U.N. prior to the “death blowâ€) performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind. (This being the “death blow†that not only destroys the se image of Daniel 2 at it’s feet (Anglo/America), but also takes the U.N. prior to the “death blow†out of existence since you can’t have a world peace organization when there is no world peace) 14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image+ to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. ( I think that this is a time distortion and happens prior to the “death blow†but is reported here much like a flashback in movies and TV)+ 15 And it was permitted to give breath* to the image of the wild beast (which is the fourth incarnation of beasts of Daniel 7) , so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast. (So it is the image of the beast, the fourth beast of Daniel 7, the reformed U.N. that)… 16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead,+ 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name+ of the wild beast or the number of its name. (issues the edict of the “mark of the beastâ€) + 18 This is where it calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is a man’s number,* and its number is 666. ( or 616)+ (This has to do when the mark comes into existence) Joshua, the explanation of the Watchtower was a good attempt for being made at a time when we could not possibly see what would unfold in the world situation, but since they have stopped trying to understand prophecy, thinking that they knew everything that needs to be known, they have never upgraded their understanding to anything that makes sense and also more importantly will also fit the fulfillment of the first century. This understanding that I have given not only makes sense but it takes into consideration history that has happened since the Watchtower made it's attempt. Your interpretation, although I know you think it has come directly from jehovhah's spirit is also out of date and will not fit the first century fulfillment no matter how hard you try. Give it some serious thought my brother. You are very intelligent and I know that you wish to know the truth, but you are holding onto concepts that originated with the Watchtower that are simply out of date. Frank
Obviously you didn't read post #325, just a few posts back. Besides the fact I've said over and over and believe the first century fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem mirrors the end times prophecies. You are quiet mistaken... With all do respect of course, just a quick background, I studied with brothers that later became Co's, Do's, only men with knowledge of the deeper things, only men who could discus these subjects with me, no doubt you could understand why. I can tell you what Jehovah's current earthly representation believes as to prophecy and history up until now, and one thing you are obviously missing is my difference in presentation. I always questioned how the heaven high tree connected to Dan 4 and the destruction of Israel. I came across Roberts web sight many years ago, over 5 years ago now. Now, I can't say whether this is a lack of your understanding of current societies understandings or picking up on what I have explained to you here, but respectfully you misunderstand that my understanding is anywhere close to the societies as it pertains to prophecy. Let's start with our lord being enthroned, hasn't happened yet, need I say more? Conversely the WTS is however Jehovah's current earthly representation of his sovereignty. May I suggest and remind you of a scripture that Jesus related to other apostles in the first century. Math 9:49,50; "In response John said: “Instructor, we saw someone expelling demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he is not following with us.†But Jesus said to him: “Do not try to prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you.†Of course you could present this same scripture to me, however there is a reason I'm quoting this scripture to you, and it's this; Frank, you, me, SingleCell, Utuna, Wallflower and every other person on this forum will fulfill a prophecy, and I want to share that with you, but first I want to share something with you that only one other person here is aware of, and I have not disclosed until this moment to anyone else. Nothing I have is mine, nothing I understand is of my own originality nor writings, however this below is the stone placed before Joshua with seven eyes at Zech 3:9; "See the stone that I have set before Joshua! On the one stone are seven eyes; and I am engraving an inscription on it,’ declares Jehovah of armies, ‘and I will take away the guilt of that land in one day." {2300 Starts} Watchtower News Reports: Festival of Trumpets | {965 Days Pass} | {1260, 1290, 1335 Starts} Watchtower Goes Down: | {777 Days Pass} | {1742nd Day} Call to Rebuild Jerusalem: | {108 Days Pass} | {1850th Day} Anglo-America Collapses: Feast of Tabernacles | {375 Days Pass} | {1260 Ends} Jesus Enthroned: Day of Atonement | {30 Days Pass} | {1290 Ends} Disgusting Thing: | {45 Days Pass} | {2300[SUP]th[/SUP], 1335[SUP]th [/SUP]Day} New World: Hanukkah This is the fulfillment of Zech 3:9, and there are only a few moments within our lifespan that these moments fall in line with the time frames between these dates. Remember the question I asked on the thread that no one was able to answer about what was the day that no one knew the day nor hour? There is one other person on this forum who knew the answer but I guess they decided not to answer. That day is Rosh Hashanah. It's the day the two witnesses see the first new moon of the month. It was never quite known which day it would be on, and could be a day here or there so it was known as the day no one knew the day nor hour. It just so happens to be the day of trumpets as well. Once that day is seen, every other day of the time of the end will be known. That's the answer to knowing the time of the end, we don't know the first day the end begins, but after that we will know the exact date of every event after. Just like Noah, Moses, Daniel, Daniel, Jesus, etc... I'm in no way trying to put myself in a position of prominence or respect, in fact I see myself the same way Paul had, "but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame;" Yes I was commissioned for a work, and it was this work. Why he chooses the weak a foolish things I don't know, but I know I'm weak as per sin, and I am weak as it pertains to this world..., but from my birth on there has never been anything more that I have loved then Jehovah, and nothing more then what I wanted to do then his will.... Why me to find the structure in chaos? It may not matter, but I did some extensive work into code breaking from historical events from the founding of the US in the past and have a knack for patterns in chaotic structures. So, the two witnesses are not on the scene yet, and so therefore they have not been chosen. The two witnesses will be those who see in fulfillment Rosh hashanah, however the next thing we are waiting on is this, "and I am engraving an inscription on it" The stone has been placed before Joshua, and this is the next moment in history these dates fall in line; {2300 Starts} Watchtower News Reports: Sept 9th, 2018; Rosh Hashanah | {965 Days Pass} | {1260, 1290, 1335 Starts} Watchtower Goes Down: May 1st, 2021 | {777 Days Pass} | {1742nd Day} Call to Rebuild Jerusalem: June 17th, 2023 | {108 Days Pass} | {1850th Day} Anglo-America Collapses: Sept 29th-6th, 2023; Sukkot | {375 Days Pass} | {1260 Ends} Jesus Enthroned: Oct 12th, 2024; Yom Kippur | {30 Days Pass} | {1290 Ends} Disgusting Thing Placed: Nov 11th, 2024 | {45 Days Pass} | {2300[SUP]th[/SUP], 1335[SUP]th [/SUP]Day} New World: Dec 26th, 2024; Hanukkah It doesn't matter if someone questions this or that, It doesn't matter if you questions me or not... All I know is, I was anointed to do a work, and that work will end in my death in the future for the sake of Christ. I look forward to spending time with the brothers by my side reestablishing Jehovah's congregation here on earth after the beast acts 42 months, and hope it's everyone here. There is a prophecy in Eze that I think many of us here will be part of; "He then called out in my ears with a loud voice, saying: “Summon those who will bring punishment on the city, each one with his weapon for destruction in his hand!†I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate that faces north, each with his weapon for smashing in his hand; and there was one man among them clothed in linen, with a secretary’s inkhorn at his waist, and they came in and stood beside the copper altar. Then the glory of the God of Israel rose from where it had rested above the cherubs and moved to the threshold of the doorway of the house, and he began calling out to the man who was clothed in linen, at whose waist was the secretary’s inkhorn. Jehovah said to him: “Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and groaning+ over all the detestable things that are being done in the city.†And to the others he said in my hearing: “Go through the city after him and strike. Do not let your eye feel sorry, and do not feel any compassion. Old man, young man, virgin, little child, and women you should kill off completely.+ But do not go near to any man on whom there is the mark. You should start from my sanctuary.†So they started with the elders who were in front of the house. Then he said to them: “Defile the house and fill the courtyards with the slain. Go!†So they went out and struck down people in the city." Now as to that prophecy that I mentioned would be fulfilled by this forum is here; Zech 3:8; "Hear, please, O High Priest Joshua, you and your companions who sit before you, for these men serve as a sign; look! I am bringing in my servant Sprout!" Once the dates of the stone before Joshua begin all those here will have a very important role in service to Jehovah as portents. When these events begin to occur it would appear that our small little forum here will play a major roll in witnessing the beginning of the end. Of course the two witnesses will not be chosen and recognized until that moment and they still need to make it there, because after all they can fall away and someone else fill their shoes before the end begins, but all I do know is my commission. Should I be quiet about it? IDK, maybe, but I've been silent as to my commission for years, have I not? A last note of information, I feel like I need to add. I never wanted to be part of the John class, I in fact fought it just as Robert had. I love the make up of this universe, and love studying physics and Quantum Theory to try and understand it's workings. I mourned when Jehovah chose me, I mourned the loss of my being able to live here in this universe for ever and the physical enjoyments that come along with it, but it was at that moment I had to make a decision whether that was more important to me, then to do Jehovah's will, and I chose Jehovah's will, but yet I mourned and bitterly felt the loss of the desire to stay here on earth. The moment I stopped resisting Jehovah's spirit over took me. I regret now that I resisted, because maybe I would have enjoyed that moment more, but after the world before me was certainly different. This was Feb 18 2009 and this just happen to be in the middle of reading Zech 3:9; "See the stone that I have set before Joshua! On the one stone are seven eyes; and I am engraving an inscription on it,’ declares Jehovah of armies, ‘and I will take away the guilt of that land in one day." I pray for all of us here, it seems to me Jehovah has a will for this forum, I've never seen so many people with so much knowledge in one place. I'm being serious, even the brothers I studied with over the years in my younger years couldn't have these discussions with me. Frank I appreciate your desire for truth and knowledge, and as well you SingleCell, John, and even Cisco... And I know you all want to to serve Jehovah... It doesn't matter what you think about this post, we all respect that about each other... Yes Frank I've read your webpage you back, and I've only really brought it up once, such as your fire signs, and I don't want to be someone to discourage someone in the work of the lord; "But Jesus said to him: “Do not try to prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you.†So I will will leave this post with this scripture, Zech 3:9; "See the stone that I have set before Joshua! On the one stone are seven eyes; and I am engraving an inscription on it,’ declares Jehovah of armies, ‘and I will take away the guilt of that land in one day."
Here Frank, SingleCell, think about this; Rome / Anglo-America Dan 11:7:19 “Then I wanted to know more about the fourth beast,<~~(Rome/Anglo-America) which was different from all the others; it was extraordinarily fearsome, with iron teeth and copper claws, and it was devouring and crushing, and trampling down what was left with its feet;" <~~(Anglo-America) Dan 2:33 "its legs were of iron,<~~(Rome) and its feet were partly of iron<~~(Rome) and partly of clay."<~~(Ango-America) Dan 7:11 "I watched until the beast<~~(Rome/Anglo-America) was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire."Dan 7:41-43 “And just as you saw thefeet and the toes<~~(Anglo-America) to be partly of clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom will be divided, but some of the hardness of iron will be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with soft clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom will be partly strong and partly fragile. Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people; but they will not stick together, one to the other, just as iron does not mix with clay." Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Rome, Anglo-America. It is the destruction of the fourth beast at Dan 7:11 that allows the Eighth king, the entire image as a whole to take over, so keep in mind that the image itself is also the Eighth king itself. Since the image is itself also the Eighth king that means At Dan 7:11 the fourth beast including it's feet lose their control over the whole image, that is what is meant by it's body burned, and that's when the the seventh kingdom loses it's throne to the entire image, and it's the entire image that takes over as a whole at that moment. That's why it's said that the stone cut out without hands destroys the entire image when striking it at it's feet, because it's the entire image that is the Eighth king/UN, and the entire image is the first beast of Rev 13. Anglo-America is the false prophet of Rev 13 and even though it gives its power along with the ten kings over to the Eighth combined king, they still will exist as entities up until the end, and all destroyed together by the mountain cut out without hands. Babylon is the head as the Holy See, but after the seventh kingdom loses its throne to the Eighth whole image the immense image turns on the head of gold, the lion, Babylon, the Holy See, the harlot and destroys her. Yes the Holy See is basically the Catholic church, but more precisely it's the Holy See. Again, no ones answered if you would like to go through Daniel step by step... I will start a new thread or just start the discussion here, but I suggest we start at Daniel 12:11, it's probably one of the most important scriptures in the bible as it pertains to prophecy... It's the only way to work out the chronology of Rev...
Hi Joshua: I have written down and presented what I think is the meaning of Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Revelation 13 & 17 in detail. You have done the same. It is very clear to me at least that I will not be able to persuade you that you are miss-applying prophecies and mixing prophecies that do not belong being mixed. It is also clear to me that I could never go back to your line of thinking now that I have seen in the scriptures what I have seen. Let’s just agree to disagree and be patient and see what happens. I read over Daniel 2 last night and I noticed a couple things that might interest you. In verse 29 it points out very clearly ““As for you, O king, on your bed your thoughts turned to what is to take place in the future, and the Revealer of secrets has made known to you what is to happen". This is because visions are of things that are going to happen, not what already has happened. This is a very important point because the same thing is true about John’s vision; it was given to him through the angel to show him and the rest of Christ’s slaves “what must shortly take placeâ€. Now this “shortly taking place" applies to not only us but also to John and the rest of the Christian congregation. So a similar fulfillment would happen for them. Not exact, but similar. So Nebuchadnezzar was seeing the future and so was John, therefore John could not be seeing a vision that included fulfillments from the past that had already happened from Daniel 2. Not only that but since Nebuchadnezzar was seeing the future you cannot include Egypt or Assyria into the explanation of this prophecy like the Watchtower does. It does not fit. That being said, that only leaves you with 5 or at most 6 beasts in the image of Daniel 2 depending on if you include Britain as one beast and Anglo/America as another or only Anglo/America together. They are now 1. Babylon the head, 2. Medo/Persia the shoulders and breasts, 3. Greece the midsection and thighs, 4. Rome the legs of iron, 5. Anglo/America the feet of iron and clay or some how fit Britain between Rome and Anglo/America. You do not have seven beasts that will exist in the future from Nebuchadnezzar’s perspective to dream about and therefore these beasts cannot fit the vision of John. If you say that the U.N. after coming out of the abyss is the 7th beast it still doesn't fit because we both know that the U.N. after the abyss is the 8th king that comes from the 7. This is impossible in your scenario. Your puzzle piece sort of fits the puzzle, but on closer examination the image on the piece does not help you complete the picture of the puzzle. It must fit somewhere else. There are many other pieces that don’t fit but I am not going to beat a dead horse. Frank
I'm not sure what your talking about. I don't think the problem is the difference in understandings "we" have, I think the problem is the understand "your" having. The whole vision of Daniel 2 is still future and hasn't happened yet. You clearly either are not reading my posts, or simple can't follow it. Why do you think there are only four beasts mentioned in Rev 13, and the heads are separate? There are clearly only four beasts seen in Dan 2, just the same as Dan 7. I see no problem with the beast in Rev 13 having seven heads while the image has four, because as you say the image was from Babylon on, however each of the world powers have their modern fulfillment such as Egypt anty-type in the end. The other beasts weren't included in Dan because they had passed by that time, Rev 13 is including them all. Why would the vision of Dan 2 include beasts that were already gone? The vision was for Nebs future. There was an original fulfillment of Dan 7 of these beasts kingdoms, as well as an end time fulfillment. The end time fulfillment includes all of the ruling beasts including the four of Dan 2, 7. Rev separates the four beats mentioned in Dan but includes the 7 ruling heads to show the difference in explaining the ruling heads. Rev 13 separates them out to include both the image of Dan 2, 7 and as well all 7 ruling kings. Simple... That's why it's the last ruling king encumbering all kingdoms. Each head and beast all have a modern fulfillment. You still either are not reading my posts or you simply are unable to grasp them. Or maybe your just not taking them time to study them. IDK The UN coming out of the abyss is the 8th king. The only dead horse I see is this reply of yours, Anglo-America is the 7th king, and when the 7th king goes down the UN/8th king rises from the abyss... Are you lost or just skip through my posts, or just don't understand what your reading?