So then the battle in Daniel 8 has to be talking about the time of the end, right? Dan 8:19; "Then he said: “Here I am causing you to know what will happen in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end."
Hi Joshua: This article may or may not inspire you to "update" your prophetic understandings a bit, they are very dated. http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/financial.html frank
Actually it does. Revelation 13:3-5 “. . .And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 4 And they worshiped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshiped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?†5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it.†The beast whose death stroke is healed then wars against the holy ones. Revelation 13:7 “. . .And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.†This also correlates with Daniel 7:20-22 “. . .and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other [horn] that came up and before which three fell, even that horn that had eyes and a mouth speaking grandiose things and the appearance of which was bigger than that of its fellows. 21 “I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, 22 . . .†Therefore the beast with the healed death stroke IS THE EIGHTH KING! Yes...he actually does. SEE ABOVE. I hope it's clearer now.
Wow, maybe I'm just slow. If you could please point out where the bible mentions the Eight king besides Rev 17. You quoted Rev 13 and Daniel, but for the life of me I didn't see the words "eighth king" in any of the scriptures you quoted here. Surely I'm just missing it right, and you can point it out to me..?
All joking aside cristo, if you were actually reading my posts all the way through, you wouldn't have posted such an off base post. The first beast of Rev 13 is the beast that will become the Eighth king, but before it does it comes against the constant feature. Rev 13 shows you the Eighth king along side the seventh as the small horn. It comes against the constant feature in that form before it becomes the Eighth king, then years after coming against the constant feature it will become the Eighth king. Do you think the Eighth king just poofs into existence, not having existed before? You obviously haven't read how the small horn is speaking before the beast it comes from is killed. Please explain the chronology of Dan 7:11, how is it the small horn is alive before the beast it comes from is destroyed? Are you following any of this? All you have to do is look at Rev 17:8, what does it say? The wild beast that you saw, how did you see it? A healed death stroke that was healed right? It was, meaning it was in the form of a head stroke that was healed. Now after that, it is not, it goes down after that, then rises from the ashes. You connect these two events with no scriptural proof what so ever. The beast in Rev 13 comes from sea, the beast in Rev 17 comes from abyss. It's more complex then what you imagine. Please read my posts before trying to debunk the chronology, it doesn't do you any favors.
One possible way to understand what is bolded above: 1. Coming out of the sea: the 7 empires throughout history came out of the common pool of mankind, this is an overview 2. Coming out of the abyss: referencing the healed death-stroke of the seventh head, rather than the entire entity of the 7 empires, this is a moment in time rather than an overview If you disagree with this explanation, then the situation does indeed become complicated; but I'm not sure we need to complicate the matter, multiple descriptions from different angles seems to be the modus operandi of prophecy. I agree with you about the little horn existing prior to the death-stroke though, that seems pretty clear, or at the very least (correct me if I'm wrong) there is no scripture which ties the little horn forming after the death-stroke is healed.
Actually what is clear is the little horn exists before the beast it comes from is killed/fourth beast of Dan 7. The little horn is formed at the same moment of the death stroke. The beast in Rev 13 is the little horn, and that little horn will become the Eighth king, but it isn't the Eighth king yet in Rev 13. I'm trying to think of a way to explain it, maybe I need to draw a graph or something if this post doesn't work. The little horn in Dan 7 comes from the fourth beast. That little horn plucks up three other horns. This is the death stroke of the seventh head in Rev 13. The death stroke=creation of small horn. The fourth beast is still alive at this point. Therefore the beast from Rev 13 has not risen from the abyss yet in Rev 17. It is still only from the sea and a small horn. The first beast of Rev 13 is the small horn. The second beast of Rev 13 is the fourth beast from Dan 7. The little horn does not become the Eighth king until after the fourth beast from Dan 7 is killed. Which is also the second beast of Rev 13. What you are seeing in Rev 13 is the small horn, with the seventh head having a wound that was healed. The death stroke to the beast in Rev 13 is not the moment it comes from the abyss in Rev 17, that happens later. Yes out of the sea is from mankind. Out of the abyss is after the 7th king/Fourth beast Dan 7/2nd beast Rev 13 goes down. The small horn coming into existence is not the same moment as the beast in Rev 17 coming from the abyss. We know that from Daniel 7. Daniel 7 states quite clearly that the small horn is speaking and saying many things before the fourth beast it comes from is killed. They exist along side each other. Now at some point after the small horn comes against the constant feature, that fourth beast is killed. (Dan 7:11) That was not the death stroke to the head in Rev 13. That death stroke came and was healed when the small horn came up and three others were plucked up. Now, however the small horn coming out of the abyss is the same moment as the fourth beast in Daniel 17 is killed. Dan 7:8 = Rev 13:1-18 Dan 7:11 = Rev 17:8 Let me say this, Daniel 7:1-8 is the exact mirror of Rev 13:1-18. Now after that the fourth beast is killed at Dan 7:11. This mirrors Rev 17. The first beast in Rev 13 goes down (the whole beast), now this is years after its head wound, then comes up from the abyss in Rev 17. The death stroke to the head of the Rev 13 beast is not the moment it comes out of the abyss. These are two separate events, even though the identity of the beast is the same. Look at Daniel 7:12; "But as for the rest of the beasts,their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season." Now, this is right after the fourth beast was killed, burnt up by second death. There is no healing there. Now look close, the other beasts rulerships were taken away. Yes, because they give their power to the Eighth king. Now how long will that Eighth king be around? A time and a season. A time=360 days. A season equals 360/4=90. So 360 days plus one season of 90 days equals 450 days. The Eighth king will only reign 450 days.
Hello All: In the discussion that has proceeded on this topic, it has been assumed and actually stated that the beasts of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 are one and the same beasts. I will attempt to show that this is not the case and that a closer look is warranted and a different view of these prophecies is possible and/or probable. At first read it may seem to be the case that Jehovah God is giving Daniel and John the same vision from a slightly different vantage point, but on closer look that is not really the case. In Daniel chapter 7 it is clear that Daniel is seeing in vision from God four beasts that exist individually of each other and probably in a consecutive manner, one after the other. We see this in the procession in history of the various powers that existed over God’s people from Babylon to Medo/Persia to Greece and finally to Rome as the fourth beast seen in vision by Daniel. I think we are for the most part in agreement on this topic. However, a closer look at Revelation 13 reveals a striking but consistent difference in John’s description of his vision. In Revelation 13 John sees not four distinct beasts (plural), but four separate descriptions of the same beast (Singular). Although I think that your understandings of these scriptures are thus far incorrect, I do not for one moment question the sincerity of your attempts at understanding these prophecies. I hope that you will take this information that I have presented and you will allow it to influence how you see the outworking of God’s Will in his prophecy and therefore gain a better understanding of what is really being said here. Although we know that Satan has always had great influence on the Political and Military leaders of the past and present, we must remember that he will actually be cast down to the earth in the last days and will exist in human form much like he and his cohorts did in the first Century during Jesus’ ministry (possessing humans). I think that this is why the fourth description of the final beast is so menacing and frightening in it’s description by God’s Word, because it will actually be “the Dragon†or Satan and his entire heavenly administration possessing the human leaders in these last days. I think we are already seeing this manifestation in the “movers and shakers†of this system and it will only get worse as we get closer to the “time of the endâ€. Daniel declared: “I was watching in my visions during the night, and look! the four winds of the heavens were stirring up the vast sea.+ 3 And four huge beasts+ came out of the sea, each different from the others. 4 “The first one was like a lion,+ and it had the wings of an eagle.+ I watched until its wings were plucked out, and it was lifted up from the earth and was made to stand up on two feet like a man, and it was given the heart of a man. 5 “And look! another beast, a second one, like a bear.+ It was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, ‘Get up, eat much flesh.’+ 6 “After this I kept watching, and look! another beast, like a leopard,+ but on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. And the beast had four heads,+ and it was given authority to rule. 7 “After this I kept watching in the visions of the night, and I saw a fourth beast, fearsome and terrifying and unusually strong, and it had large iron teeth. It was devouring and crushing, and what was left it trampled down with its feet.+ It was different from all the other beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns. 8 While I considered the horns, look! another horn, a small one,+ came up among them, and three of the first horns were plucked up from before it. And look! there were eyes like human eyes in this horn, and there was a mouth speaking arrogantly.*+ Daniel 7:2-8 And it* stood still on the sand of the sea. And I saw a wild beast+(singular) ascending out of the sea,+ with ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems,* but on its heads blasphemous names. 2 Now the wild beast (again singular) that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were like those of a bear, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. And the dragon+ gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority.+ Revelation 13: 1,2 (So, this is ONE wild beast that has the characteristics of four different types of beasts, but it is in fact one singular beast unlike the four separate and distinct beasts of Daniel 7) frank
That is possible Frank, however, I think Rev 17:10-11 gives enough evidence to conclude otherwise (though a framework with your idea is worthwhile) And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not,+ it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction. Rev 17:10-11 Five have fallen: Egypt -> Assyria -> Babylon -> Medo-Persia -> Greece One is: Rome One has not yet arrived: "The West" Iron and clay How do you interpret 17:10 within your framework?
Hi SingleCell: We were talking about Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 which is an orange/orange discussion. You have brought Revelation 17 into the discussion making it apples/oranges. Stay on point, my brother! frank
I second that, but you forget Rev 17:9. Of what reason is there for the identity of these beasts as nation should change. I don't see any scriptural evidence of this, so therefore it's human interpretation.
Actually I think SingleCell is straight on. Rev 17: 10; And there are seven kings Rev 13:1; with ten horns and seven heads, These scriptures are speaking of the seven kings that stand up from the earth. Dan 2, 7, 8, 11... It's a pretty common theme...
Hi Joshua: Could we keep our ADD in check for a little bit at least. We are discussing Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, not Revelation 17. Leave Revelation 17 out of the equation until we have solved the discrepencies with the current interpretation of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, and Oh, by the way, why is everyone else's observations "interpretations" when only yours is clearly from Jehovah, quite being like that! frank
But then we're left suggesting that there are two distinct 7-headed beasts (edit: correction, either two 7-headed, OR the 7 kings are different from the 7-heads <- that is possible). Revelation 17 gives us another 'peek' into the 7-headed beast, so either we conclude there are two of them, or we put the data together and filter out pieces which don't fit. Otherwise, we create a framework from Daniel 7 and Rev 13 ONLY, and then realize it's wrong because Rev 17 invalidates it. So IMO, before we create a framework to understand Rev 13 as being an amalgamation single beast, we need to bring Rev 17 into the context so it squares.
You are right though Frank, Rev 13 refers to the 1st wild beast as an amalgamation, not distinct entities. So to suggest that Rev 13 1-8 is referencing empires over time, we also need to provide a solution to the quandary you point out. My solution: Within the 'empires over time' framework, Rev 13:1-8 is showing the empires the seventh head are derived from, and the 1st wild beast is actually the seventh head. There is precedence for this understanding; in Daniel 7 "Rome" (iron) has the claws of Greece (copper). (Dan 7:19) Actually, am I now arguing that we're both right Frank? lol, OK, so then: if the seventh head is "The West" (or anglo-America, anglo-Euro-America, etc), which we have good reason to conclude. How is the West, 1st wild beast, seventh head: - "like Greece" (duh) - "moves, positions itself like medo-Persia" (protecting Israel? - Cyrus, conquered the known world) - "speaks like Babylon" (spiritism, controls the known world through legal structure?) read culture and economic life
I was simply trying to make the point that it would seem you cannot separate Rev 13 and Rev 17 at all that in fact they are speaking of the exact same entity. So therefore how can you describe the beast in Rev 13 without discussing Rev 17?
Hi SingleCell: Thank you for finally taking the time to look at this closely. Once you see it, you will not be able to "unsee" it again, I hope. Now, as to the assumption that the seven headed, ten horned beast mentioned in Revelation 17 being a procession of World Powers down through the ages (as the Watchtower exegesis suggests) and which is clearly a human "interpretation", I would like to point out a very big flaw in this viewpoint if I could. We have to remember that Revelation is a "whole". Yes, it is broken into sections but it is a whole prophecy from beginning to end. We must also keep in mind that it clearly says in Revelation 1:10.11 that ... 10 By inspiration, I came to be in the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet saying: 11 What you see, write in a scroll and send it to the 7 congregations (Revelation 1). So, the Revelation was a prophecy that deals with a time period that is referred to by John as being "in the Lord's day". Did the procession of World Powers from Babylon to Rome and beyond exist "in the Lord's day"? Hardly! The "Lords day" would be defined by the presence of the Lord Jesus himself, or at least by the presence of one of his bride members. Since it is clearly talking about the last days of this system of things, it must be something other than the Babylon to Anglo/American procession of World Powers. Although, that is precisely what Daniel 2 and the large image is about. We just cannot confuse the two. Sorry to burst your prophetic bubble like this, but as Joshua always says, it will be the Bible itself which will give you the clues as which way to go, not private interpretations, no matter how "logical" they may sound at first. The U.N. is the beast that is being spoken about in Revelation 13 and 17 and it certainly does exist during the "Lords day". So, our job is to try to figure out who or what are meant by the "seven heads" and "ten horns" if they are clearly not talking about Babylon to AngloAmerican world powers. frank
Also to add, this is why I believe Dan 8 is the key to figure out Daniel 7. The angel tells us that the vision is for the time of the end, so those two battling beasts represents a war, and pertains to that beast in Rev 13 coming to be...