Actually I think both the WT and what you posted are simultaneously correct, as I was essentially arguing.

The wild beast is an amalgamation of the Daniel 2 statue with a reference point in time - the 1st wild beast is the seventh head, typified as the gestalt of the Daniel 2 statue.

Hence the 'amalgamation' being made up of the preceding empires; so Rev 13:1-8 is a reference to Daniel 2 AND 7, but a moment in time - as Rev 17:10 clarifies.

edit: the interesting insight I picked up from your post Frank, is looking into the attributes of those preceding empires, and finding the correlation with the seventh head! (rather than seeing it as solely a reference to Daniel 2)

 

uic

Hi SingleCell:

You just got out of the "quick sand" of a bad interpretation, don't circle around and walk back into the same mess. Daniel 2 is talking about the procession of world powers through the ages, but Revelation 13 and 17 only deals with the period of time known as the "Lords day", please remember that one thing. I have fallen into that same trap myself in the past and it is a hard mindset to escape from. Revelation 13 and 17 also talk about the same beast, but in two different circumstances. One has seven heads and ten horns and no rider while the other is ridden by a "prostitute". You must also keep that difference in mind.

frank

 

If that is true, then how do you explain Rev 17:10? I need a framework to understand that verse before throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

What I just laid out has precedence in Daniel 7:19 (iron and copper)

 

Hi SingleCell:

Here is an example of a possible solution to Rev. 17:9,10 that does not include that procession of world powers but satisfies the wording of Revelation....

9 Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The 7 heads are 7 mountains [7 administrations of the UN from Lie to Kofi Annan], where the woman sits upon them [The Roman Catholic church sat upon 5 of the first 7 mountains as permanent UN observer from U Thant to Kofi Annan].
10 And there are 7 kings [7 Popes during the lifetime of the UN before the end of the RC church]: 5 have fallen [Pope Pius XII 1939-1958. Pope John XXIII 1958-1963. Pope Paul VI 1963-1978. Pope John Paul I 1978-1978. Pope John Paul II 1978-2005. All of whom died] one is [Pope Benedict XVI 2005 to 2012 - but he did not fall - he resigned. And then 7th and final Pope, the successor of Benedict], the other has not yet arrived [There will be one further Pope after Benedict XVI - He has now arrived - He is Pope Francis], but when he does arrive he must remain small [This could mean small in authority or status or it could mean for a short while, which ends with the 8th king taking over.]

This too is logical, and it does fit. Whether it is true, I do not know, but hopefully it will be enough to get you to think of other possible solutions that does not deal with Babylon to Anglo/America, which cannot possibly be the solution no matter how strongly the Watchtower or you feel about it.

frank

 

Thanks Frank! Something to ponder.

Honestly, I'll drop ANY previously held prophetic conception when a better comes along.

I have an odd case of "not really caring how this turns out"-disease I just like the investigation.

My first investigation into prophecy started with the seventh day adventists, this is very similar to their framework (though they too use the JW empires over time idea).

 

Hi All:

Think about this as a framework for a possible solution to who or what the beast of Rev. 13 and 17 is. I think that it is talking very clearly about the U.N. as "the beast". When it talks about the U.N. in Daniel 7, I think it is presenting the U.N. as it appears from the vantage point of who is exercising the most "influence" on it at the time, but it is always speaking of the U.N..

In the beginning of the U.N. after WWII the west through the U.S. and Britain exercised the most influence and is described as being like a lion (Britain) and an eagle (U.S.), later that influence starts to move east and the U.N. is now seen under more of an influence from the bear (Russia) and finally the influence moves even further east to the leopard (Russia/China/India etc.). The same can be said as to their influence on the financial aspects of the world which has always centered around London/New York but more and more is leaning to the east. Soon the Dollar and the Pound will be used as toilet paper and the Renmibi/Yuan and the ruble will rule the finance world. We are watching the fullfillment of prophecy right in front of out very eyes and we almost missed it.

Here is one of many articles I could site as proof or support for my argument....

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/sep/18/unitednations.china

frank

 

Join the club !

Besides the fact that it bores me stiff, when I see all the mess and nonsense out there that the wannabe prophets grind out in relation with those prophecies, I don't even want to make the effort of adding my two cents... I may have my say once in a while for the fun of it but that'll be all !

My philosophy in that regard, instead of scratching my head ? : "However, when they deliver YOU up, do not become anxious about how or what YOU are to speak; for what YOU are to speak will be given YOU in that hour; for the ones speaking are not just YOU, but it is the spirit of YOUR Father that speaks by YOU." - Mat. 10:19-20

However, this discussion is nonetheless interesting.

 

Are you telling me that Jack Van Impe is wrong?

NOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo!





If we don't stop the communists, we're gonna lose 'Merica (and Fwance)!

 

Hi SC:

Don't know much of anything about Jack Van Impe although I have listened to him before for a few minutes. He's just a flim flammer trying to get rich. Maybe i'm wrong, but that's how I see him.

frank

 

Let's just say 'flim flammer' doesn't accurately describe him

More like 'spawn of Satan'

[I'm only semi-joking here, but the picture thread is 100% humor]

For most US denominations, prophecy = "Jesus trying to protect America by ensuring the second ammendment allows us Christians to shoot at people - especially the communists"

OK, I'm done being silly --- ignore me, it's Friday.

 

Great idea Joshua - I'll do this tomorrow.

 

Thank you for doing this Josh, it's a good exercise.

First beast Rev 13 = "The West", derived from Greco-Roman culture

Head with death stroke Rev 13 = Economic collapse of the US system (US = the head)

Second beast of Rev 13 = Doesn't exist yet, comes out of the aforementioned collapse

Beast of Rev 17 out of abyss = First beast of Rev 13, which receives the death-stroke on one of it's heads (US collapse)

Babylon of Rev 17 = Either Babylonian Judaism or the Catholic Church

Fourth beast of Dan 7 = Rome, and then "The West", and finally the eighth king (depending on WHEN in Daniel 7 we're discussing)

Lion of Dan 7 = Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon

Little horn of Dan 7 = Eighth king, springs out of "The West" after the death-stroke

Little horn of Dan 8 = Eighth king, spring out of the "The West", this chapter shows the "Greco" component, where-as Daniel 7 shows the Roman component

Ram of Dan 8 = Medo-Persia

Goat of Dan 8 = Greece under Alexander (single horn), and then Seleucus, Lysimachus, Ptolemy, Cassander (4 horns)

Constant Feature = Christian <something>, possibly the Watchtower, possibly the ministry, possibly Christian worship in general

 

Hi Joshua and SingleCell:

Remember a couple key scritptures when you are trying to figure out who the various parties are in "modern times". What I mean is spelled out in both Revelation 1:10 where it reminds us of the time frame of Revelation (both in the first century and the last) when it says, "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, 11 saying: “What you see, write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations: "

Also, in Daniel 8 it shows us that this prophecy and the one in Daniel 7 are "in the last days" of the first presence of the Lord and the present presence, defined by the existence of Jesus himself on earth or Jesus being present through his "flesh", his bride (or at least one of the 144,000 members of his bride). Yes, Daniel 7 nowhere mentions the last days but there is an anchor that places this prophecy squarely in the "last days".

"While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and seeking to understand it, suddenly I saw standing in front of me someone who appeared to be a man. 16 Then I heard the voice of a man in the midst of the U′lai,+ and he called out: “Ga′bri·el,+ make that one understand what he saw.â€￾+ 17 So he came near to where I was standing, but when he came I was so terrified that I fell facedown. He said to me: “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end.â€￾+ 18 But while he was speaking with me, I fell fast asleep with my face to the ground. So he touched me and made me stand up where I had been standing.+ 19 Then he said: “Here I am causing you to know what will happen in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end.+" Daniel 8:15-19

Of course, these two chapters talk about the rise and fall of ancient kingdoms such as Medo/Persia, Greece, Rome etc. but most importantly it is showing us what will be "during the Lord's Day" and "in the appointed time of the end" and that is where we must focus our attention if we are to get this correct. The anchor scripture that shows that these two prophecies deal with the same time period is the first verse of both chapters. Daniel chapter 7 centers around the first year of King Belshazzar of Babylon and Daniel 8 deals with the third year of King Belshazzar. We know who the historical Belshazzar was, the key to understanding these prophecies hinges on discerning who is the "King Belshazzar" in "the Lord's Day" or in the "time of the end"? Since the prophecies are prophetic for our time, then the antitypical "King Belshazzar" must be from this time period.

I personally have not been able to discern who this is as yet, but I think it is a key understanding that is necessary to have in order to put together all the pieces.

frank

 

I see no problem reading Revelation 'in the Lord's day' and also connecting the dots of the empires through time.

Within the framework I just posted, the description of the first beast shows the connection between it's predecessors (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece) and the current "Western World"-dominated structure.

If we ONLY read Revelation as a modern expression, then we invalidate Daniel 7 / 8's relevancy because it shows the clear connection between Rome and the Western World which emerged from it, and is then correlated in Rev 13 / 17 with the '10 horns'.

Make sense? Said another way: Daniel 7 / 8 are a long timeline of empire, the 'fourth beast' with the 10 horns is a loooong timeline, which picks up in Rev 13 during the time of the end.

Said even another way: if Rome, the fourth beast, contorts into the final eight king, then we can simultaneously see Rome and it's symbology as 'in the Lord's day' (Rev 13) and throughout history (Daniel 7).

 

Hi Joshua:

In the original account of Daniel the Bible speaks of literal characters that existed at that time such as Belshazzar, Medo/Persia, Greece, Rome etc. Since all of these characters will have a "antitypical" fulfillment in some other capacity, it only stands to reason that the main character in the beginning of both chapters will too.

Also, that is how the entire Bible is written. We are given historical accounts of things that actually happened in former times, but those accounts also reveal what will happen in our day. The entire Bible has been written in order for us to know what will happen in our time. Of course, the literal character of Belshazzar will not live in our day, but someone who fills a similar position in the out working of Prophecy will.

"For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction,+ so that through our endurance+ and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.+" Romans 15:4

“The One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done.â€￾—ISAIAH 46:10

Jehovah not only knows what will happen in the future, but he puts accounts in the Bible that actually happened in real time in order to tell also what will happen in the finale of time, which is our day. So, he words his prophecy so that it fulfills what happened in history, but also fulfills in marvelous detail what will happen in the finale (or the time of the end). So the words written in the Bible, especially the prophetic utterances have multiple fulfillments in every detail.

I assure you there is an antitypical Belshazzar and in order to accurately and effectively understand the prophecies of Daniel 7 and 8, you must understand who or what is being described by the name Belshazzar.

To give you an example, many of Jehovah's Witnesses understand that not only was there a Golden Calf that was unworthily given worship in the day of Moses and Aaron when they should have given exclusive devotion to Jehovah alone, but that even today many Golden Calves exist among people who say they worship God exclusively including Jehovah's Witnesses who have exalted the Governing Body to the position of an antitypical Golden Calf that they share Jehovah's exclusive devotion with.

It will not be an easy thing to figure out, but it can be done with the blessing of God and a large measure of his Holy Spirit and sufficient effort on our parts.

frank

 

We're over-complicating this IMO.

Why must there be an anti-type fulfillment?

Daniel 7 / 8 are empires shown to exist in some form until the time of the end (Rome and Greece), there is no anti-type in the text.

- Daniel 7 says Rome develops the 10 horns and the 'litlte horn' - this chapter shows the Roman connection of our current world, in fact showing the direct connection with the post-Roman nation-state system.

- Daniel 8 says the nations coming out of Alexander's death exist in some form during the time of the end - this chapter shows the Greek connection of our current world, in effect showing the Greek connection with Rome.

This all correlates into the first beast of Rev 13.

Those empires exist 'in spirit' as parts of the first beast, which is the iron-clay, and history correlates with this:

We are Greco-Roman people living in a Greco-Roman world (didn't Madonna sing this?), the aforementioned chapters in Daniel are a study on the iron-clay mixture.