The small horn is EMPOWERED from the destruction of the beast - not created. If we're talking about the UN, then it already exists as an entity. The two-horned entity 'breaths' life into the image. Same answer above. Similar to Medo-Persia really being two regional empires working together (albeit, with Persia as the lead), this beast (iron-clay) would be the Anglo-European amalgamation of nation-states typically called the 'Western World'. What else could it be? The 10 horns come out of Rome. I see no paradox - can you cite the specific scriptures you believe don't congeal and I'll respond directly to what you are referencing? (highlight 'same events' with a font color maybe?) Coming out of the abyss and healing from the death-stroke are the same event .. Coming out of the sea is talking about how this beast came into being, in other words, the Western world came out of many nations, tribes and tongues. (recall that I'm arguing the beast is embodied by the acting empire / head, of the age - another way to read this within the framework is ALL of these 7 empires came out of mankind - but the subject and acting head of Rev 13 is the 7th) Yup, the horn exists now, in the form of the United Nations. It becomes empowered post crash, when the beast is 'healed' / 'rising from the abyss', the two horned entity (US/UK?) give power to the image; this two horned entity comes out of the 'earth' because it forms from the death-stroke event when the Western World is brought 'down to the earth'. Then the 'grandiose' words of the UN / little horn / image which unite the world into a global order under the leadership of the Anglo-European eighth king. The 'second death' is a different event, it 'goes of into destruction' - this is a not the same moment as the death-stroke, and it's counter-part, what caused it to be abyss-ed at Rev 17:8
The death-stroke. Financial collapse of the Western US Dollar denominated world. Alternatively, to prevent financial blowout, the West ignites regional wars (Ukraine, etc) which spark into a WW3 scenario, including the limited use of nuclear weapons. After this event, whatever form it takes, the UN (image) is empowered by the US / UK (two Christian horns who go bananas) 'to the glory of the West' which becomes the 8th king - and the world will worship the Western 'democratic' world system which healed, through the prompting of the grandiose words coming out of the UN. People today will EAT IT UP, they WANT a secular humanist government to save them from the evil religious system of old. ^ guess where this leads?
Joshua - do me a favor, since I'm slow, can you post a verse and tell me why it doesn't fit? Then I can respond directly to the what you are citing. I get lost amidst the series of questions
The problems you have with chronology are Dan 11 and Rev 17, let me show you... Rev 17:8; "The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction." The wild beast we saw was, how was the wild beast that we saw? Rev 13:3; "I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed," This is the form in which Rev 17 is talking about. When it says the wild beast you saw it means with a head wound healed. So think very carefully, Rev 17 is saying "look at the wild beast with the healed wound, now after this Rev 17 says it "is not", that means that it goes down after the previous head would was healed, because we already saw it with a healed wound. It is already healed by the time we get to Rev 17, this has to be a different occurrence because it says now it is not. We never saw the beast before the head wound was healed, therefore when Rev 17 says the beast you saw, it can not mean the beast before it had the healed wound, because we never see that. We only see it healed. Therefore when Rev 17 says that it is not, it means that it is not after it was healed. Now, it says "it's about to ascend out of the abyss", how could it be about to ascend out of the abyss if the death stroke was already healed? The beast we saw with a head wound that was healed comes from the sea, it comes from the sea even though it's head wound is healed. Think about that, the beast comes from the sea after it's head wound is healed, that's what we see in Rev 13. You can't escape the fact that the beast in Rev 13 we see with a head wound comes out of the sea, with a head wound. You can't escape the fact that Rev 17 is reminding you of the beast you saw with the head wound from the sea. When Rev 17 says "it was" it means it was out of the sea and had a death stroke that was healed. Now it said "it is not", that means sometime after we see it, it no longer exists, then it will come from the abyss. When it says "about to ascend out of the abyss" you are putting that statement before Rev 13. Rev 17 is not chronologically before Rev 13 because it reminds us of seeing it already. Do you see how you would have an impossible chain of events if you try and combine Rev 17 and 13? You have the chicken and egg thing that can't be solved, because it's not what's intended. With the chronology of Dan 17 it makes it impossible that the out of the abyss and out of the sea are the same event. Now let's look at Dan 11; Dan 11:31; "And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature." We know this is when the small horn comes against the constant feature to remove it. Now let's look what happens in Dan 11:40. This is also the moment that Robert skews from Chronology because he puts verses 36-44 between the two sentences in verse 30 because he thinks the Eighth king comes before the constant feature is removed, but this is incorrect, Dan 11 is chronologically sound from verse 1-45. Dan 11:40; “In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and horsemen and many ships; and he will enter into the lands and sweep through like a flood." This is the moment that Anglo-America goes down and the Eighth king is set up, but wait, this is long after the small horn comes against the constant feature in Verse 31. What Robert hasn't recognized yet, and as well you is that the small horn comes against the constant feature before it becomes the Eighth king. We are not going to see Anglo-America go down next, we are waiting to see the little horn come against the constant feature first. Rev 13 is the small horn and it exists now, but has not become the Eighth king yet, it will come against the constant feature in it's current form, then during the end it will become the Eighth king. This is the chronology...
You are assuming that the 'beast we saw' is post-healed-death-stroke. Why? Couldn't it be the beast at anytime? THEN it 'was not' (the death-stroke), then it rises out of the abyss (the healing). If that isn't the interpretation, you are left proposing TWO death-stroke events. This framework I'm arguing for is more consistent - the abyssing / death-stroke -> healing / coming out of abyss -> and THEN goes off into destruction. Agreed! I'm not suggesting that. 'out of the sea' = the iron-clay came out of many tribes and nations and tongues (the broken up Roman empire) 'out of the abyss' = the healed death-stroke I need to review Daniel 11 again (and again and again and again), the vast majority of that prophecy was fulfilled between the Seleucids and the Ptolemaics in my opinion (and the Jews, Macabees, Antiochus Epiphanese (sp?)). Not sure how much to apply to the end, since it's SO specific. But you said: "Rev 13 is the small horn and it exists now, but has not become the Eighth king yet, it will come against the constant feature in it's current form, then during the end it will become the Eighth king. This is the chronology..." Which is exactly what I'm stating: the UN is the image, and post Western collapse (death-stroke), the US/UK breath life into the UN which then props up the Western World to become the Eighth King.
Because it has to be. How did we see the beast? Post healed death stroke. We never see the beast before the healed death stroke. In fact there was no first beast of Rev 13 before the healed death stroke of one of it's heads, it's from that healed wound that that beast comes to be. Therefore when Rev 17 says the beast you saw it means as it is in Rev 13. Tell me where we see the beast in Rev 13 pre-death stroke? Rev 17 says the "beast you saw". How did we see that beast? No, it can not be the beast at anytime, because Rev 17:8 says it's talking about the beast we saw. So it can only be talking about the beast in the form of which we saw it. It can not be talking about the beast pre-death stroke because we never "saw" the beast pre-death stroke. It can only mean the beast we saw as we saw it, post death stroke... No, in fact you are missing a couple things. Like I've said many time Dan 7:11 shows Anglo-America going down, but it is totally burned up by fire, do you know what this means? There is no healing from that. That is the second death and correlates with the fifth bowl poured on the throne of the beast. When the North wins the final battle against the South, Anglo-America will no longer exist, there is no healing death stroke from the second death, you cease to exist. One of the heads with a death stroke in Rev 13 is one of the ruling kings, Rome/Britain. The second beast of Rev 13 is Anglo-America and is also the fourth beast of Dan 7. It's the second beast of Rev 13 that is destroyed by fire, and is also the fourth beast of Dan 7. You miss that the battle in Dan 8 is the battle that causes the death stroke to the head of the beast and the small horn comes out of that, also the 7th king of Anglo-America. The beast is Rev 13 comes out of the sea with the death stroke. Out of the sea comes a beast with a healed death stroke. The healed death stroke does not come out of the abyss, the healed death stroke comes out of the sea, that's what Rev 13 says. You have a paradox. The UN exists now before becoming the Eighth king. I am saying that Rev 13 describes what happens after the second world war. The death stroke is Britain, and the Anglo-American loan healed their wound. At the same time the UN was established out of the sea, as well Anglo-America can be seen as the second beast of Rev 13. The fire coming down from heaven in front of the first beast was the two atomic weapons dropped on Japan. The image of the beast is the physical location of the UN headquarters in New York. Ones can receive the mark of the beast now, but at the moment the only way to get it would be to become an NGO or something like that, understand?
Also, keep in mind Rev 17:11; "And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven" It springs from the seven, we only see seven heads on the beast in Rev 13, so therefore the Eighth comes from that beast.
The seventh goes down, the image and the 2-horned lamb promote it, and it becomes the eight king when it rises from the abyss / heals from the death-stroke.
Because it has to be. How did we see the beast? Post healed death stroke. We never see the beast before the healed death stroke. In fact there was no first beast of Rev 13 before the healed death stroke of one of it's heads, it's from that healed wound that that beast comes to be. Therefore when Rev 17 says the beast you saw it means as it is in Rev 13. Tell me where we see the beast in Rev 13 pre-death stroke? Rev 17 says the "beast you saw". How did we see that beast? Not true! The "beast that you saw" is referencing the beast with the woman on top in 17:3 "And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns." 17:3 AND THEN, when the angel explains it: "The wild beast that you saw was (17:3), but is not (death-stroke), and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss (healed), and it is to go off into destruction. (second death, after all of these other events occur first)" 17:8 There is no reason to interpret it the way you are insisting, and if anything, makes LESS sense IMO Let's hash this out, and then move onto your other points. My general principle in putting this together is to remove as much speculation as possible (let the Bible identify as much as possible), uncomplicate the mess and preconceived notions, and build from the ground up as simply as possible. In Rev 13 a beast suffers a death-stroke and a healing. In Rev 17 a beast suffers an abyssing and coming out of the abyss. Why complicate this by creating two events? It's the same beast isn't it? The 'wild beast' with 7 heads in Rev 13 and 17. After the abyssing / death-stroke, the 2-horned Christian-Dragon (US/UK) empowers the image (UN), and both promote the wild beast (Western Political System which came out of Rome) and it becomes the eighth king.
Go ahead and study from Dan 11:31-45... You have the horn coming against the constant feature, then the final battle between north and south later... Sometimes I wonder about this DB. I wonder if it ever does any good and what it's purpose is. Utuna says it's for everyone to have a place to come away from the outside world, but I wonder about Jehovah's will for it... I then think that the only way these prophecies will be recognized is when they are fulfilled. My understanding will be very easy to discount because it does bring in dates for things to occur. All we have to do is wait for those dates...lol The next opportunity for the end to start is 9/9/2018, the next opportunity after that will be 2021, then 2037. So it will be easy to see if I'm wrong... But I'm glad I'm only waiting on news reports first and not the collapse of the seventh king...
"Tell me where we see the beast in Rev 13 pre-death stroke?" 13:1-2 = BROAD overview of the formation of this political system which the seventh head, the "post-Roman West", becomes the primary subject of in the rest of 13 Now whether we use the lion / bear / leopard as attributes the seventh head adopted from Babylon/Persia/Greece, or are just markers to signify this is effectively the 'statue' of Daniel 2 is not clear. (or both) I could go either way on that.
Your right, it's the beast with the seven heads, not Eight... Rev 13:1; "And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems," Rev 17:3; "And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns." The reason the chronology of Rev has to be this way is because of Dan 7, 8, 11... It has to fit all of scripture. Dan 11 says the small horn comes against the constant feature before the final battle between the north and south. Dan 7 says the Eighth king only lives for 450 days, that's not enough time to come against the constant feature for 1260 days. Anglo-America goes down 450 days before the new world comes in...
If the Western seventh king collapses in the next few years, like many economists are predicting ... well, uh, you can buy me a beer Daniel 11 ... I see no reason to apply that as a future prophecy, OTHER than the mention of the constant feature section. (and even that I'm OK leaving as a Jewish prophecy already fulfilled, covering 200BCE - 0) I don't think you significantly counter-argued the Rev 17:3 -> 17:8 connection! (edit: ok cool, so we're on the same page there - now, do you agree that the abyssing and the death-stroke are the same event?)
Daniel 11 needs to be shelved in my opinion, until we determine for a certainty that we're dealing with a dual fulfillment of that chapter. Now, for Rev 13 / 17 and Daniel 7 / 8 I'm reasonably convinced of this framework I'm arguing for, and none of these chapter are dual fulfillment - hence my 'anti-type' rejection a few pages back. This framework is predicated on Daniel 7 and 8 being BROAD overviews of the Roman and Greek empires, and how their 'offspring' is what goes up against Christ. It fits. Bring Daniel 11 into it, and we're back into a messy mess. For most of Daniel 11, I don't expect ANY dual fulfillment, unless we're calling Hillary Clinton Cleopatra or something
So to be clear: I'm not sure there is a King of the North or King of the South anymore. The Ptolemaics and the Seleucids fullfilled that prophecy: Antiochus Epiphanies desecrated the holy place and removed the constant feature. It's a precise fulfillment of prophecy, Eden a few years back wrote an amazing post breaking it down. Hence, I reject Daniel 11 as being this ultra-convoluted dual fulfillment prophecy, since we can adequately (more so) explain Daniel 7 and 8 without needing any anti-type dual fulfillment ideas. [I realize it's tempting, but how do you explain ANY of Daniel 11 in a modern context? we are left picking a few verses out and hamstringing our understanding by forcing a modern solution into it] Perhaps Daniel 11 is similar to the 7-times of Nebuchadnezzar - fulfilled once, and a stumbling block for modern interpreters when the impetus to use it as prophecy isn't there? Here Joshua, see this: http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/bible-studies/daniel/study018/page02-early-ptolemy-and-seleucid-dynasty-prophecies.html (found on a quick Google, no clue who they are, but this is what I'm referencing) I am open to the idea that the last section about the 'abomination' can be taken as a reference for how some of this will unfold.
The reason you would be in a mess when bringing in Dan 11 is because it doesn't fit your chronology but, remember we need the whole bible to fit or an idea is wrong. That includes Dan 11. There is good reason to believe Dan 11 is fulfilled in the time of the end; Dan 11:40; “In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing," So therefore this occurs in the time of the end. There is no way to separate the constant feature being removed in Dan 11 from the of Dan 11:31; "And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature." Rev 13:5; "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months." Rev 13:7; "It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them," Therefore the beast acting for 42 months is the same event as Dan 12:7; “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.†The constant feature is a dual prophecy of 66-70CE and in the end...
Dan 12:11b; "the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place," (Equals) Dan 11:45; "And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration;" Dan 11:31b; "will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature." (Equals) Dan 12:11a; “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed" And Dan 12:9 says this is for the time of the end, Dan 11:40 says it's for the time of the end, Dan 8:19 says it's for the time of the end... No reason to keep hashing at this subject, it appears that only time will uncover all things...
But how do you explain Daniel 11:1-26? There can be no doubt that it's fulfillment was in the Ptolemaic and Seleucid empires. "But when he (Alexander) has stood up, his kingdom will be broken and be divided toward the four winds of the heavens (Ptolemy, Selecus, Cassander, Lysimachus)" verse 4 "“And the king of the south will become strong, that is, one of his (Alexander's) princes; but one (Seleucus) will prevail against him and will rule with extensive dominion, greater than that one’s ruling power." verse 5 So the king of the south is Ptolemy... there is no other way of reading this - you are left posing conjecture that KOTS isn't KOTS but an anti-type. Seriously, read that link I gave you, it's fulfillment is exact and breaks down each verse against the history of Alexander's four generals. Dan 11:40; “In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing," The Seleucids and Ptolemaics did engage in a pushing, up until the end of the Jewish system. (Antiochus Epiphanes hated the Jews, and desecrated the temple - this is the original fulfillment, NOT Rome in 70 CE) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes#Sacking_of_Jerusalem_and_persecution_of_Jews If any dual fulfillment happened in Daniel 11, it was the second 'desecration of the holy place' by Rome in 70, the first was by Antiochus.