No wonder it's tempting to insert Daniel 11's mention of the constant feature into a larger event!

But could it just be an example as a reference point for the original occurence, rather than 11 being a 1:1 prophetic timeline?

Logically, I would have to say yes - otherwise we have to create a massive string of dual-fulfillment's between modern times and the Seleucids / Ptolemaics.

 

Hi SingleCell:

How many kingdoms are represented in the large idol of Daniel 2? Can you name them in succession?

frank

 

Either 5, or 6 kingdoms

1. Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) - Gold
2. Medo-Persia or just Achaemenid (Cyrus conquers Babylon - the 'three ribs' in Daniel 7's bear mouth: Lydia, Media, Babylonia) - Silver
3. Greece (Alexander defeats Persia, dies, and his four generals broke up the kingdom [fulfilling Daniel 11:4 - see below]) - Copper
4. Rome (Annexation of the Ptolemaics = Greek connection) - Iron

If you see the feet and toes as separate:

5. Feet - Iron-clay (Holy Rome [or perhaps Goths, Visigoths, et al])
6. (10) Toes - Iron-clay (Nation-States of Anglo-Euro-America, but in some other framework, I'm looking for ideas about a 10-member power structure - a Roman derivative either way, but I see no reason to abstract 10 to mean anything other than '10' somethings, which I'm not sure about)


2:42 could be used to suggest a separation between feet and toes, is why I mention.

(if that is the case, perhaps the Holy Roman -> Nation-State transition ~1500 with M. Luther, and Henry's Anglican church)

I'm also open to the little horn which comes from the 10 being the Catholic church, in another framework, which would be fun to go through.



Daniel 11:4

But when he has stood up, his kingdom will be broken and be divided toward the four winds of the heavens, but not to his descendants and not like the dominion with which he ruled; for his kingdom will be uprooted and go to others besides these.

Pretty amazing, see this for further insight into the events of Daniel 11: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great#Division_of_the_empire

 

ten toes

the New refashioned United States under the new world order is going to be overseen in ten different sectors across the country controlled by ten governors.. Just a thought singlecell..

 

Hi SingleCell:

Who are the 7 heads of the beasts mentioned in Revelation 13 and 17? Please name them in succession for me.

frank

 

Thanks Ben!

I've heard that before, the "ten FEMA districts"?

My main problem adopting that view is the disconnect with "Rome" (UK/Europe) in that framework, but I'll put that on my list of options for future consideration.

Have you heard of a possible world-wide 10 district division? I recall hearing someone mention that once, but it was probably on some 'conspiracy' site so I dismissed it

 

I think I heard it on a conspiracy theory show..but I wouldn't do miss all of it on that account..ten kings are given authority to rule one hour with the wild beast..it seems plausible from that vantage point..but I believe the NWO is the major development in the time of the end..these governors rule over ten districts is from what I've gathered so..time will tell I guess..just because people scoff at the suggestion of conspiracy theories doest mean some aren't actually based in reality..

 

In this framework (5 in the statue):

The "5 who are not": Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece

The "one who is": Rome

The "one who is coming": Iron-clay post-Rome "West"

And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while.

Rev 17:10

 

all the kings of the earth give their power to the wild beast then there are ten kings that rule as kings for one hour with the beast primarily centered in the West like you said It would seem..the FEMA sectors are the 10 different districts and the ten corresponding governors one for each district but it is so wait and see as it continues to develop you're right..

 

Hi SingleCell:

So, what you are saying is that the eighth king (that springs from the seven) is not a part of the image from Daniel 2? Is that what you are saying?

frank

 

Yes, and no

The 7th IS the 8th king.

After the 7th resurrects from his death-stroke, he becomes the eighth king - this is accomplished by the 'image' and the 2-horned-Christian-Dragon promoting the resurrected beast to the world.

Daniel 2 is a 2600 yr. overview of prophecy up to the return of Christ and his kingdom, the details of that timeline emerge in Daniel 7 / 8 / 9 / 11 / 12 and Rev 12 / 13 / 17 / 18

Said another way, Daniel 2 is an entry point to prophecy, it draws the outline and then we shade the details in with the other chapters.

Not to harp on Daniel 11 again, but look at the swath of detail not found in Daniel 2 about Medo-Persia and Greece. In the statue, we see no representation of the Ptolemaics and Seleucids, but in Daniel 8 and 11, those details emerge.

Similarly with the 'bear' and the 3 ribs - those details aren't in the statue, but are in Daniel 7. (Lydia, Babylonia, and Media = the ribs = Cyrus conquered)

 

:

Hi SingleCell:

It sounds as though you interpret "out of the seven" to mean that the eighth king has to have come from the seventh king, not from among the seven previous kingdoms? Is that what you are saying? If so, if I was doing a magic trick, and because my magic skills are not good at best, I ask you to "pick a card, any card", out of the seven that I have in my hand. Would that mean that you had to pick the seventh card>? Or did I mean that you could pick from "among" the seven that I have in my hand?.

I think that is what is being said in Revelation 17. That the eighth king comes from among the seven, not from the seventh. Revue the scripture in an interlinear and I think that you will agree.

frank

 

'of the seven' or 'out of the seven' can be understood a number of ways.

The clue IMO is Rev 13:1-2 where the beast has the attributes of Greece, Medo-Persia and Babylon.

And from Daniel 7 we know the iron-clay comes out of Rome.

So putting it together:

The seventh head took the attributes of it's parent-empires, and was immediately out of the post-Roman empire. This squares with Rev 17:10 where we see 5 of them 'are not'.

How do you understand it in application? (I need to look closer at your pope list, because I'm open to the idea that the Holy Roman empire enters into this)

 

Hi SingleCell:

What I really was after is where does the eighth king fit in the prophecy at Daniel 2? It is clear that from the Watchtower explanation that these are 5 of the last seven heads that existed over God's people, namely Egypt and Assyria (pre-Daniel 2), then Babylon (gold), Medo/Persia (silver), Greece (copper or bronze), Rome (Iron), and finally Anglo/America which is the Iron mixed with Clay.

I see no description of the eighth king in Daniel 2. Does that leave us to fill in the details with information from Revelation 13 and/or 17, as you say? Am I on the right track here?

frank

 

I'm not sure that is a problem.

See Daniel 8, there is no mention of Rome! It's just Greece -> Return of Christ (Daniel 7 fills in this puzzle piece showing the copper component of the fourth beast)

So using Daniel 2 as an overview, we can put together the missing pieces in the same way Daniel 7 and 8 work together, or Daniel 8 and 11 work together.

Note: Daniel 2 doesn't mention the image, the false prophet, the man of lawlessness, etc - so I'm not sure we should use it as a baseline for ALL events, rather, just a broad overview of the main empires which would rule until Christ's kingdom.

Given the special nature of the eighth, I don't think we should balk at it's exclusion from the statue.

 

It does indeed!

[queue Daniel 11 arguments?]



edit: actually I'm not sure this is true: "Dan 8 is also a dual fulfillment"

What is the first fulfillment? (perhaps coinciding with Daniel 11's Antiochus IV? but it's not an exact match like Daniel 11)

It seems to me this is saying that in the final part of the 'kingdoms' that came out of Greece the 'fierce king' goes against Christ.

OR I need to re-evaluate Daniel 11 for a timeline break-point where it transitions from Seleucus / Ptolemy to end of the system... I was also wondering about Daniel 12 which seems to pickup right after Daniel 11 and shows a clear end of system marker.

Research, thinking, meditation required.

One component I want to stress, is the fulfillment of Daniel 11 in Ptolemy (KotS) and Seleucus (KotN), here is the fulfillment of the constant feature and abomination:

To consolidate his empire and strengthen his hold over the region, Antiochus decided to side with the Hellenized Jews by outlawing Jewish religious rites and traditions kept by observant Jews and by ordering the worship of Zeus as the supreme god (2 Maccabees 6:1–12). This was anathema to the Jews and when they refused, Antiochus sent an army to enforce his decree. Because of the resistance, the city was destroyed, many were slaughtered, and a military Greek citadel called the Acra was established.

Info copied from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes#Sacking_of_Jerusalem_and_persecution_of_Jews

 

Hi SingleCell:

In Daniel 2:44 the Bible uses the term "in the days of those kings". Was it talking about Nebuchadnezzar's day, or Cyrus' day, or Alexander the Great's day, or the day of the mighty Roman Empire? All of these kings? If all, then this must have been happening all through time. But no, we are already aware that these actions spoken about in Daniel 2 are for "the Lord's day" and for "the time of the end", so "in the days of those kings" must apply to "kings" plural who exist "in the time of the end". That leaves only the "ten toes" of the feet of the great image in Daniel 2. These ten toes are one and the same as the "ten kings who rule with the beast for one hour" in the "last days" of Revelation.

So, Jesus destroys the eighth king which is made up of the seven headed ten horned wild beast who rules along with the 10 kings that do not have a kingdom until the "last hour". That means that the stone (not cut with hands) that destroys the image, made up of the preceding 7 kingdoms is destroyed, not by Jesus and the Kingdom of God, but by the demons, who have been cast down to the earth and are inhabiting powerful and evil humans. They become the fourth beast of Daniel 7 which has a kingdom over the entire earth, until Jesus wipes them off the planet and installs his Kingdom to the Glory of his heavenly Father and himself.

Daniel does not go into the detail that you see in other Bible books, but if you read the verses with discernment, you will see that I am correct. It is why the Bible is written in such an ambiguous way. If you only search the surface, you may find treasure, but it is by digging deep that you will find the Silver buried deep within it's ambiguity. It is non conventional, but it is the only solution that really works.

Actually, I think that it will be a conspiracy of the highest of "movers and shakers" of this system of things that has planned and will carry out the destruction of the current world order, in order to establish their coup de grace of authoritarianism on this planet. That conspiracy by that small but powerful and influential group are no doubt all possessed by Satan and his Dragon, his administration of fallen angels and "born again" ones who are his children from the human population as well. Some have even once been adopted children of God. They will strike at the seat of power that is the Anglo/American power by the terroristic destruction of both London and New York which represent the two feet of the Anglo/American part of the great image of Daniel 2. That will happen soon. They will no doubt try to pin it on whomever they think will do the most harm to this system and to whom the masses will believe. Whether World War III will start, I do not know, but one thing is for sure. Anglo/America's role in world affairs will be deeply diminished.

frank