They Will Altogether Reach Their End, says Jehovah - Is the Law Dead?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Londoner, Dec 26, 2017.

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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I appreciate the effort, but was wondering if I could offer a suggestion. Your dossier is 27 pages long, would it be possible to post short comments as to the gist of what you are trying to portray? So that while reading someone may be able to focus on your main points.

    To be honest, I'm not sure how many people are going to take the time to sit down and read through everything you just presented, especially without knowing ahead of time what the synopses is.

    All love...
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Short answer to the question; Yes. The law applied to the nation of Israel, and those who became worshipers of Jehovah, in those times before Christ’s sacrifice. The Law given to Israel was based on the underlying principles for human conduct. Many of those were also symbolic of things to come in the future. The Law given to the nation of Israel was a “covenant”, a “will”. A legal agreement as long as it was in force. So, the scriptures in Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc., were in force in their time. That covenant was replaced by the “New Covenant” given to those who follow Christ. That covenant came into force after the death of Christ. It was the true blood of sacrifice to wipe away sin, through the “New Testament”/New Will, to replace the “Old Testament”/Old Will . (Acts 10:9-16)

    The blood of Christ Jesus nullifies the old laws. (Eph 2:13; Heb 10:19, 12:24, 13:20; 1 Pet 1:2; 1 Joh 1:7; Rev 1:5, 17:6.

    In the translation you quoted from, it used the word “controversy” instead of “execute judgment”. (Isa 66:16; Jer 25:31)

    For me, and I believe, those who translated other bibles, that “controversy” is a poor word choice from the Hebrew; shaphat (shaw-fat’) = to judge, govern, vindicate, punish. I find “controversy” to be a bit deluding. It’s like saying, “Oh, ‘executing judgement’ is too harsh. Let’s use controversy.”

    Controversy = 1. a prolonged public dispute, debate, or contention; disputation concerning a matter of opinion. 2. contention, strife, or argument. I don't believe controversy is what Jehovah had in mind.

     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    Jesus fulfilled the Law as it was back then and brought it to a higher level of understanding and fulfillment. Jesus was the GOAL of the Law. In other words, Jesus embodied the Law. The Law in itself is now obsolete but its core principles embodied in Jesus Christ remain forever.

    Furthermore, as reminded by Tsaphah, covenants in the past were settled by blood being shed. Jesus' blood having been shed, the Mosaic Law is therefore null and void, but not its core principles.

    "So the Law became our guardian leading to Christ, so that we might be declared righteous through faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a guardian." - Gal. 3:24-25
     
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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi Joshuastone7 :)

    The first 2 pages tells you want the essay is about. Isa 66:15-17 says that Jehovah will bring to an end, those eating the flesh of the pig and loathsome things, during His controversy with the nations. Jeremiah 25 covers this controversy as well. I ask in the essay, Why would God destroy those eating unclean food according to the Law, if the Law was dead since the death of Christ?
    If you scroll down to page 25, to the "Conclusion", there is a short summary of the main points. The essay is long because I had to do a verse by verse summary of much of Paul's letters to the Romans and Galatians to prove that he didn't teach that the Law was dead.

    Londoner
     
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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi Tsaphah :)

    Thanks for your reply. I agree with your opinion in the use of the word "controversy".
    The scriptures you quote do not prove that the blood of Christ nullifies the old laws. If that was the case, why would God in Isa 66:17 destroy all those eating the flesh of the pig and other loathsome things in his future judgement of the nations? Furthermore, Paul categorically said that the Law was not abolished, but established! Rom 3:31 -

    Do we, then, abolish law by means of our faith? Never may that happen! On the contrary, we establish law.

    Please prayerfully read Rom 2-10, and Gal 2-6 slowly, as these are the only books Paul writes about the Law in detail. You will see that Paul does not teach that the Law is dead or nullified since the death of Christ, instead he teaches that faith in Christ and being under undeserved kindness strengthens or establishes the Law!

    Londoner
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Good afternoon...

    Let me ask you; So your saying that Jehovah means quite literally "those who eat mice" in the time of the end are his enemies?

    As well, God's people will be gathered back together literally "on horses, in chariots, in covered wagons, on mules, and on swift camels,"? (Isa 66:20)

    And as well, he gives attention to those who use bows and arrows? " those who draw the bow." (66:19)

    I've said it before, and hope you reconsider Peters vision of the sheet...
     
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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi Utuna :)

    Please see my reply to Tsaphah!

    Londoner
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Londoner,

    Proof your genetic idea is unfounded...

     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Hi Londoner,
    Paul’s letter to the congregations were addressed to those Israelites living under the “civil laws” of Rome. They were under the impression that “The Law” was still in effect, for them, and not for the nations (goyim).

    This is; “The Law”.

    ( Ex 20:1-17 DARBY )
    And God spoke all these words, saying, I am Jehovah thy God, who have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
    Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    Thou shalt not make thyself any graven image, or any form of what is in the heavens above, or what is in the earth beneath, or what is in the waters under the earth:
    thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them; for I, Jehovah thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and to the fourth [generation] of them that hate me,and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
    Thou shalt not idly utter the name of Jehovah thy God; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that idly uttereth his name.
    Remember the sabbath day to hallow it.
    Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the sabbath of Jehovah thy God: thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy bondman, nor thy handmaid, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates.
    For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
    Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be prolonged in the land that Jehovah thy God giveth thee.
    Thou shalt not kill.
    Thou shalt not commit adultery.
    Thou shalt not steal.
    Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
    Thou shalt not desire thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not desire thy neighbour’s wife, nor his bondman, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbour’s.

    These are the religious “law”; legal requirements given to the Israelites as the basis for their lives. Everything else, added later, can be considered as “civil law” requirements. In the history of other nations, they established civil laws first, and then, religious laws according to their gods, after their nation was established. Most of their religious beliefs were created by sophists (philosophers).

    In his letter to the Roman congregation, Paul said; “For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing, in a day when God judges the hidden things of men, according to my gospel, through Jesus Christ.” ( Rom 2:14-16 LITV )

    This thought of the underlying reasons for “the Law” is reiterated by Paul, to those Israelites living in Rome. (Rom 2:17-24) The “basis” of the “Law” is not dead. It is alive in Christ Jesus, and we as believers in Christ are a part of his body.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Thank You Joshuastone,
    This was fantastic. Talk about hitting the nail on the head! He does it with math and facts. I have also done my "Family Tree", and found the difficulty of how far back you can go. Too many branches. My wife, and some of my children want to do the "stupid DNA test". I say NO! It makes NO difference! You are who you are! The companies who do the DNA test are "in the business", to make MONEY!! They sell your information to those who will pay for it. Especially "Governments"!!
    I had a person tell me that they traced their family all the way back to Adam. Ha Ha Ha. The Israelites cannot trace their families because the Romans destroyed all their records when they destroyed the temple. That is why they have no priests to perform their rituals.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yea, he puts the "period" at the end of the sentence on this subject...
     
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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi Joshuastone7 :)

    Isa 66:19,20 is talking about a mode of transport and weapons that were known at the time the book was written. As it is a prophesy yet to be fulfilled sometime in the future, then obviously there would be modes of transport/weaponry applicable for that time. Isaiah would not describe modern modes of transport/weaponry that he/his readers would not understand.

    However, when it comes to unclean pig/loathsome flesh described in Lev 11 and Deu 14, these are the same whatever era we live in.
    I believe you and many others who spiritualise/symbolise scriptures that the bible does not say or indicate it is symbolic are doing violence to them and making a huge mistake. The bible warns in 1 Cor 4:6 the rule: "Do not go beyond the things that are written".

    Londoner
     
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    Londoner

    Londoner Member

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    Hi Joshuastone7 and Tsaphah :)

    This video does not prove anything. I can insert links here to videos that will destroy the assumptions this video makes. As I've consistently said, the Jews in Israel now, who are mainly Ashkenazi, Khazarian and Sephardic Jews of European origin, are not the descendants of the biblical Hebrew Israelites. Many of the true descendants are not aware of who they are and are scattered throughout the world as God said He would scatter them for breaking their covenant with Him.

    Destroyed records/scrolls/documents are irrelevant with the Most High. "God knows who belongs to Him". He has inspired His prophets in most of the prophetic books to prophesy that God will awaken the true descendants of the Hebrew Israelites to who they really are, and bring them back home to the physical land of Israel.

    If our understanding of the prophesies are correct, then the mass awakening/realisation will start sometime in 2019. If not, then it's back to the drawing board. :rolleyes:

    Londoner
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    We still have horses, covered wagons, mules etc... These still exist, but you say those are metaphors for other forms of transportation that also exists today... Okay...

    Then the eating of pigs and mice is literal, and Jehovah still condemns the eating of pigs, even though Peter was told by an angel that the unclean animals are made clean... Okay...

    Do you not see interpretation in your explanation? There must be a part of you saying, "This feels forced."

    Do you know what the "many" in Dan 9:27 represented? The "many" represented Israel/Judah. And the covenant held in place was for the Messiah/kingdom, and at the end of that 70th week the covenant was opened up to all, after it was no longer just for the "many", in fulfillment of the sheet before Peter.

    At the half of the week the sacrifices ceased being relevant at the temple when our Lord was sacrificed...

    In my summation, if you say that the pigs and mice are literal, but yet the horses, bows and arrows are metaphoric, that is going beyond what is written.

    It's just my opinion that the Bible has rules that you must follow, and one cannot just pick and choose what's metaphoric and whats literal, but that's just me.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Here is why there will not be a return of the nation of Israel, under Jehovah, to build a new temple, along with a priesthood. That system was done away with.

    For You have abandoned Your people, the house of Jacob, Because they are filled with influences from the east, And they are soothsayers like the Philistines, And they strike bargains with the children of foreigners.” (Isa 2:6) Hmmm. Sounds like a fulfillment today.

    Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!” (Mt 23:38)

    Behold, ‘your house is left to you desolate.’”(Jer. 22:5) “For I say to you, In no way shall you see Me from now on, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of Jehovah; we blessed you from the house of Jehovah..’”
    ( Psa. 118:26 LITV ) ( Mt 23:38-39 LITV )

    Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” (Lu 13:35)

    Jerusalem! Jerusalem! The one killing the prophets, and stoning those having been sent to her, how often I desired to gather your children in the way a hen gathers her brood under the wings, and you did not desire it. Behold, ‘your house is left’ to you ‘desolate’”. And truly I say to you, You shall not at all see Me until it come when you say, ‘Blessed is the One coming in the name of the Lord.’” ( Psa. 118:26 ) (Lu 13:34-35 LITV )

    So, what does desolate mean? mid-14c., “without companions,” also “uninhabited,” from Latin desolatus, past participle of desolare “leave alone, desert,” from de- “completely”+ solare “make lonely,” from solus “alone”.

    Are we to understand that no one would ever live there again? No. It is in regards to Jehovah’s presence and His spirit being available to those living there.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You know brother, I keep thinking about the properties that were sold, and then I'm reminded of Ananias and Sapphira. Although I see absolutely no connection from that incident with Peter and any prophecy, it's so weird that it's included in the text. What if the Watchtower used any portion what so ever from the funds of the sell of those properties in any other ways other then the preaching work?

    I haven't yet been able to determine why the event is included, but it just doesn't seem to be simply a lesson, for the harshness of the event seems to me to go beyond a simple reminder to be honest.

    Let alone it seems weird to sell what is dedicated to Jehovah. What if the priests sold off Harrod's Temple, to build a commune out by the Essenes, how would Jehovah have viewed that move?

    I don't know, these matters aren't my responsibility, but things I think of...
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    It appears that Ananias and Sapphira both were being untruthful. They were trying to influence Paul by showing him they were willing to give up their property for the preaching work. Jesus had told the disciples early on that they could not serve two masters.

    No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.” ( Mt 6:24 NASB )

    No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” ( Mt 6:24 KJV )

    Greek: mamonas; i.e. wealth, etc., personified as an object of worship. Paul said to Ananias; “Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” (Acts 5:4b )

    How many different “so called” Christian churches and, their followers, fall into that category? I could list quite a few, but I won’t.
    You can lie to yourself and man, but not to God.
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    I agree with Tsaphah,

    The Law was a covenant with the 12 tribes of Israel. It was a contract conditional upon both parties living up to terms. The Israelites repeatedly broke their promises, and so, God brought ruin to the entire nation, and religion; thus clearing his name. If he had allowed the Israelites to be evil, while in covenant with the Great Jehovah, then all the earth would see evil reflected in the close relationship of God himself.

    Since Israel was his ,'Son', having birthed it miraculously in Abraham's son Isaac, he also brought it to ruin in 70. Jesus foretold that here; Mark 12:1-12

    That God foresaw the wickedness of Israel, and a new Covenant would be necessary, was prophesied by Moses, and Jeremiah.

    The prophesy and time it would be terminated...to the very year of Jesus' sacrifice as the new High priest, and validation of the New Covenant with his blood, occurred in 33.ce. A close look at Daniel 9, summarizes it all.
     
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    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    Insofar as I am aware, "those eating the flesh of the pig and loathsome things" was synonymous in the mind of a Israelite with the Gentiles (heathens), and I'm not sure anyone here would argue against Jehovah being on-course to be dealing with the nations, or Gentiles, if you will— those who, in the days of the Law of Moses, were to be viewed like those who eat "the flesh of the pig and loathsome things."

    Please don't take that to mean anything more than only how I understand the reference, and my not seeing this usage of an epithet as establishing that the Gentiles followers of Jesus are under Israelite purity laws.

    I still have not read through your article, point by point, but I did have a look at your summary, on page 26.

    Would you say that the gist of your article centers on Romans 3:31 and Romans 6:14-15, and how the apostle Paul can write that our faith in Christ establishes the law, and then go on to write that we are no longer under the law? Is the law established or not? Is it binding on followers of Jesus or not, now that we are under God's grace or undeserved kindness, since we establish it by our faith? And is establishing the Law of Moses the same as enacting with the purpose of compliance and obedience.

    Am I correct in thinking these are the core points you are wanting to discuss?

    --Timothy
     

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