Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Thinking, Nov 28, 2016.
Another update by Bolt...
A interesting comment from Russell’s biblical commentaries where he corrects and admonished himself is below.
As Jesus was a stumbling block for the Jews...so could Dates and times be an ALLOWED stumbling Block for us....thus the ridiculers will come from amongst our own kind as the ridiculers of Jesus came from Jehovahs own people....
Jesus Allowed the apostles to go preaching on their first missionary with the wrong assumption that the kingdom was coming at that time..
For those who mock scoff and ridicule Jehovah’s people...Or those taking the Lead.....Be very Aware...who you are really mocking...it is Jehovah’s wisdom and the way he has allowed things and the whys...you are actually mocking...His plan..his handling of his people...his decision to discipline to the proper degree....( you think he doesn’t see even more than what you see And have experienced as to the errors)
When we do that we are acting in a presumptuous manner...we would be showing a great lack of trust In Our God Jehovah...we would not be showing faith that he knows what he is doing....we would be acting with out insight ...without deep understanding of Jehovah’s plan...or indeed his whole personality...
.( this does not mean we need to be door mats or not acknowledge and make known righteous anger and unfairness)
It was only Jesus that took up that whip and cleaned the temple on two occasions...not once did a apostle step forward to help him..Nor dare to precede him in doing that.
It is becoming clearer and clearer as time marches on that many web sites and forums on line are actually becoming guilty of the very thing they accuse the GB/WT/Society of doing...
For who makes you different from another. Indeed what do you have that you did not receive.? If in fact you did receive it, why Do you boast as tho you did not receive it?
Are you already satisfied Are you already rich? Have you began RULING AS KINGS WITH OUT US.I really wish that you had began ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings.
Thus this time thing And probably a lot of other issues ..That he allows.......is a way Jehovah can see ..distinguish ..who serves him with the right heart...BUT also who has reasoning powers ...without reasoning powers we may very well be overreached by Satan himself.
Message Bible 1Cor 4:5
So don’t get ahead of the Master and jump to conclusions with your judgements before all the evidence is in . When HE COMES he will , HE will bring out into the open and place in evidence all kinds of things WE NEVER EVEN DREAMED OF..inner motives and purposes and prayers.ONLY THEN will any of us get to hear ..well done from God...
Below is encouraging comments because it shows humility and a deep lesson for those who wish to dig for insight,,
Keep in mind Russel never claimed he was inspired...nor a prophet ...he made errors..just like All the men Jehovah used...wether they be kings or apostles ...and a clear warning for us not to follow men!
The vision....( Gods plan of the ages, the testimony of the scriptures..A great revelation ..a picture of Gods plan through the prophets of the law)
For an appointed time ....(is to be made clear at the appointed time ...Time features are not as definitely stated in the scriptures as are doctrinal features..much of what was previously purposely hidden and obscurely expressed.)
It shall speak ....(appear at the end ..it will make itself heard and not lie)
Though it tarry ...( It’s fulfillment would seem to tarry ...if it appears to make any delay...” where is the promise of his coming ..presence? For since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning 2Peter3:4
Wait for it ...( If In the The Lords providence The time should come 25 years later then that would be our will
The year 1915 is now more than half gone and I think it is very doubtful wether we shall see all we had expected this year. It looks as tho we were trying to hasten the fulfillment of the vision. In their haste some supposed that all things concerning the day of the Lord were to transpire immediately but instead the trouble comes from spasms,
Let none of the concecrated be in haste to rush into print with crude undefined ideas and thus become stumbling blocks in the way of many others
Oh the blessedness of him that waiters into the 1335 days ).
Another great talk by Kenneth Stewart ..Part one...Explaining the whys of how Jesus used spit and clay To heal The blind man...I’m thinking he may have missed a little on that point ..but never the less on point..and also the word sent...and the xp,a nation ..or that the man was required...to show an action to complete the miracle ...
( I’m sure this has been explained from the society as well )
Part two..mostly speaking about those who spiritually see are blinded...Please don’t think I put this up as an excuse to leave JWs as a people..
Because I don’t!!!!!!..and in fact ALL FAITHS have this problem...Joshua and Kaleb did not leave the camp in the wilderness when they seen the second man in charge make and prepare a Golden Calf in the wilderness...they did not flee that camp.( no doubt they distanced themselves from that element) ..nor did they flee when Moses himself sinned in acting self righteously at the end of his travels at Meribah..striking the Rock which represented Jesus..TWICE...and take the Glory for himself..
The people stayed with him...as was EXPECTED by Jehovah
Nor did Simeon the Priest leave even seeing what had come of Gods own chosen people nor Anna the Prophetess...... They did as was EXPECTED by Jehovah and rewarded for it..
All the Patterns of Gods people point to this fact...
The last few minutes of this talk is very interesting...and I may have to readjust my thoughts on a few things...
So you might say but these were chosen by God as his people...Moses Joshua Simeon Anna....and right you are.
Actually when Jehovah abandoned that way of doing things and we entered into the Christian Era....we were given The same warning In the patterns Of the Christians....wolves would enter the Cong and treat the Flock harshly...some one especially close to Jesus...one of his own would betray him with a intimate kiss...peter would weaken and renounce Jesus...many would spread the word with wrong motives...so what said Paul..at least the word is being spread...
Do not make the mistake of looking at the GB/society/WT with this talk..( yes it applies to them but also to all of us...as we are ALL WITNESS’S OF JEHOVAH....).because you will be missing a very important point....we may be pointing that finger at some one...and Jehovah may very well take our finger and point it back to ourselves...and say...you blind fools...why did you not trust me!
I was always told that when you point a finger at someone, you have three pointing back at yourself.
hahaha....I’ll remember that one....when I get the urge myself ..lol..
Looks like the UN has Finally grown its teeth....it’s no longer a conspiracy theory but on Australian Nation News...whoooaaah!!!!
I wonder WHO came up with that “left wing” statement? BBB ? How? Oh, wait!! What is the UN going to do, to lead the way back? Sounds like “right wing” propaganda! It’s all about POLITICS, NO? YES!!
It’s called; Feed the Beast. The food is called MONEY! It is about numbers with nothing to back money up. Unfortunately climate change is real. Let’s look at a scripture to back it up. “The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” ( Rev 11:18 )
What happens to the earth when several hundred acres of grass land is paved over with asphalt? What used to be acres of grass is now an asphalt surface that will heat to 40+ degrees above the air temperature. The grass temperature used to be near the air temperature.
In another case, what used to be dirt, grass, bushes, and trees is now a department store with acres of concrete and asphalt parking. It may be an abandoned shopping center, now. When it rains, the water runs faster, off the asphalt surface, onto a paved road; through a drainage pipe and then into a creek. The creek overflows and floods a neighborhood of houses. That paved road becomes a “freeway”, which has thousands of automobiles and trucks that burn gas and oil. The exhaust goes into the air as carbon monoxide, which affects the climate. It can also kill air breathing animals and humans.
Well the point of the post wasn’t anything to do with climate control......I’ve got my own private view which may be wrong or right...or even in between ...and I’m certainly not going to get into a debate over it with any brother or sister...Because that’s just what Satan wants...and I don’t have enough Neurons to spare for it.
I mean when there are actual debates and written papers worried about climate control because too many cows are farting to much etc...mankind just goes mad with these things so
It is enough for me to see and know that the scripture you quoted is happening..and a number of others..
The fact that the Australian nations media ( sky news )discussed the image of the beast so bluntly ...is what caught my attention...
The point I was making wasn’t to start an argument about climate change. It’s just evidence of science and the results of nations, UN, Russia, China, USA, etc. What Jehovah did to bad people, was why he brought the worldwide flood. The people were supposed to go to different parts of the earth, after the flood, and live within the natural norm. Instead, they became builders of “cities”. ( Gen 9:1 ) Then, instead, what they did is recorded; ( Gen 11:4 ) The results were Gen 11:7-8 )
But, that only lasted a short time. Look what is happening now, world wide. Let’s build us a city and make a name for “Ourselves!! People forget who is in control of the earth. My point was to question whatever man thinks will benefit all mankind. It is dubious. People in the Un-united States think that paper money is backed by something of value. The government tells them that it is gold. It’s not! Ten trillion dollars is just a number picked out of the air. At one time, I would have mentioned another place. As a matter of fact, the existing president says, “If you need more money, just print it!” Yeah, that’s the ticket!
I feel sorry for the animals. Mankind only looks to what they think benefits them. I worked with enough of these companies that were only interested in Money. I’m living in an area that started several thousand years ago, they found gold. They polluted the entire area looking to make more money. They drove out and killed whatever got in their way. It is getting closer to the time recorded in Rev 11:18, maybe. Jehovah is allowing natural forces to bring about his future plans for man, and the earth. He knows when to bring an end to it all. Human plans always fail. Global warming is only a small part.
I have to laugh when I see the old advertisements like Coke, and teaching the world to sing. Ha Ha Ha. Yes, Build Back Better. What a slogan. It touches the heart! Ha Ha Ha. I used to have a phrase that said; “Been there, done that!” I had to add “Well, that didn’t work! Wink wink! What else can we do?” Wink wink! Hey, I’ve got a great idea, WE can buy that empty field, and build some new houses and a shopping mall. We don’t have to tell anyone about the chemicals we will be dumping there. We can also build a “Solar Farm” on the most useless piece of that “vacant area”. Hey!! Then we can sell the electricity to the home owners. We’ll be rich!! Don't tell me I can't do that! I'm RICH!!!
What I’m saying doesn’t add questions about what could/will be negative results. I’ve watched it happen too many times. The Beast of Revelation = A man’s number 666! It all goes beyond climate change. It goes Much deeper!
Okay I get you ..
Ha Ha Ha = Build Back Better. The old so-called left wing poo poo. When they refer to, “the Green way”, I hear “M-O-N-E-Y”. Most US money is figuratively known as Green. “Hey, give me some Green!” Over here they are pressing for everyone to “Go Green!!” They say, “Why pay the power company for power?” Have them pay you! Get new solar panels for $15,999 ( plus sales tax not mentioned ).
Then sell excess power to the power company. Yeah!! You will need it to make payments on your $15,999 solar system!
No information on how many panels. No information on how much excess power you will have.
Nor, the answer to the question, what if the power company refuses to buy your excess power? What then? Oh Yeah! Build Back Better! One question; HOW!! A slogan is easy to say, but hard to explain how to make it happen.
Let’s look at something else about those solar panels. What happens when a storm/snowstorm/tornado/hurricane, destroys your panels? Will you be without power until they are fixed, or replaced? Will your insurance pay to replace them? Will they be “Built Back Better”? Maybe they should have been “Built Before Better”.
I’m putting this up a bit late ...and I listened to this some years ago.( I may have even posted this before ) ..he has another talk on Xmas Valentine’s Day etc and he’s really done his homework ..his reasonings are very sound..he’s a bit of a yeller when he talks..which I could do with out but he’s worth it...I don’t follow his beliefs system..as he feels we are still under the law of Moses...but one can handle that.
The thing is...there are all sort of different possabilities of the Mark the Beast..but it appears to come in different forms.
This is just one form it does and will come in...it’s what we find acceptable and settle on in our minds.( mark on forehead)...Jehovah knows what we think and have decided what is important and not...and it can also come as a Mark on the hand( what we physically do to support what we think) ..
Maybye the mark of the beast will become even more visible and in our face...we may lose our employment or home..as is happening in Russia and apparently some places in isolated regions of Africa and certainly in the Middle East...or perhaps the activation of the one world religion may force us into very uncomfortable position of having to take our stand,..and it may cost us food etc...
Perhaps in certain lands that may not even have to happen..relative peace may remain..and Jehovah can still discern who has the mark of the beast.
Some who live in divided homes constantly have to refresh our reasoning on these holiday stands...every year I try to fortify myself with these types of talks...because these holidays are often practised with in our homes...there is no shutting the door from the world and escaping such practises...and it can be very wearing and very trying..
The good thing about this..or the pay off in the end,,,is if it does get like China,,.then we have built spiritual muscles to cope better with what may lay ahead...when the Mark Of The Beast may become absolutely ferocious...but if we do not train ourselves to take such stands that will not cost us our lives..then how will we stand when it may.
Jeremiah 12.5If you get tired running with footmen
How can you run against horses
Even if you are confident in the land of peace
How will you fare among the dense thickets of the Jordan
So Jeremiah if your worn out in the foot race with men
What makes you think you can race against horses.
And if you cannot keep your wits during times of calm
What’s going to happen when trouble breaks loose like the Jordon in a flood.
Those closest to you, your own brothers and cousins are working against you.
They’re out to get you. They’ll stop at nothing.
Don’t trust them especially when they’re smiling
I’ve been studying this issue of the mark recently, and found that the Greek word used in revelation has the thought of a brand mark similar to what an owner does to livestock and other animals. Way back in history, they even branded their human slaves. There is no evidence that this is what is meant in Revelation. It may have the psychological meaning of the teachings being “Brain Washed”. Once the person is at that point, they will follow and do their instructions, without question. A good example is what is occurring in the USA elections. The Republicans are following the Leader, no matter where He goes. It's about power and money.
"They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories." 2Tim 4:4
"He will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant." Dan 11:30
It has been my belief the mark of the beast is the apostasy coming among God's people. The buying and selling is spiritual, just as we are admonished to buy gold from our Lord. (Rev 3:18)
In Dan 3 the image measuring 60x6x6 represented apostasy.
The image of the bull set up by Israel represented apostasy.
I believe one day there will enter into spiritual Isreal a false narritive that true believers will need to reject. The great apostasy...
Nice to see you again Josh.....and I hope all is well with you brother ....
I agree with you that the buying and selling in Rev is definitely a spiritual buy and selling or trading of truths....I view that as a very special spiritual gem to understand.......
yet it can also have a literal application of not being able to keep employment or buying food,,..this is proven when reading auto biographies of Witnesses/ Bible students during Germany and the Second World War.
Yet I think it’s main thrust of the scripture is lost because of this..
May I ask why you think the Great Apostasy didn’t start around the time of the First council of Nicaea....
What came from that Offical Council was truly a great apostasy from what Christ and the apostles preached ..
( no doubt it started after the apostles death but this seems to be the offical date and time recognised)
Off course this all must be true facts as it comes from Wikipedia..hahah...no seriously it was the best article that I could find...but there are plenty others out there and I know you have read these...
I’m not saying that what is happening in Israel does not have importance...personally I think it does...but I also have a degree of doubt and some confusion over it...so I don’t speak on the matter...but watch it carefully..
I'm not sure if you misunderstood me but I wasn't referring to physical Israel, rather that of "spiritual Israel." When I speak of spiritual Israel I'm speaking of those faithful within the WT, or those faithful outside. Spiritual Israel to me is the collection of all true believers.
It is my belief that someday there will be a worldwide narrative that will challenge those with true faith.
We have to remember that those who receive the mark of the beast go off into eternal destruction. Therefore people couldn't be receiving this mark for the last 2000 years.
The apostasy is what leads people to receive the mark. This event is in the end...
Rev 4:9-11 "If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name."
It seems clear in the chronology of the time of the end, there is an apostasy that is headed by the KOTN in order to lead away people from true worship.
Dan 11:32 "And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words."
2Pt 3:17 "You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard so that you may not be led astray with them by the error of the lawless people and fall from your own steadfastness."
Mth 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones."
2Th 2:11,12 "That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."
Remember the 666 talents of gold collected by Solomon were a sign of his apostasy from true worship.
1Kin 10:14 "And the weight of the gold that came to Solʹo·mon in one year amounted to 666 talents of gold,"
Aaaah...yes sorry I did misunderstand the spiritual Israel bit...
I get what you are saying...and why...and perhaps something may lay ahead as you say...
Those scriptures you put up still support those since the death of the apostles who persecuted and tried to stamp out true Christianity ..along with the Word or the Light.( scriptures) .and those ones would I imagine received the second death...because they certainly did have the Mark of the Beast upon them as Satan’s earthly agents.
The way the scriptures were stolen from the people and the fight ones like Luther, Wycliffe, Tyndale and many many others of whom one can only conclude Jehovah used to fight Satan when he tried to bring about the death of the scriptures and many others who sacrificed their lives for Gods word in fighting this Great Apostasy since Christ’s death.
Many of these people like waldensians etc died at times horrendous deaths...skinned alive...roasted in ovens slowly....no doubt you would have read many accounts of such demonic tortures that I cannot even write here.
Because a human mind cannot even begin to fathom to act out such gruesome horrific agony on another human..( .thus demonic entities using humans as their tools)
This is all part of The Great Apostasy which bought with it 2 Timothy 2 . 11,12
Which consists of such lies of the Trinity, No real death as everyone goes to heaven, and those who sin too much burn in eternal hell, those not too bad but not really good go to purgatory sort of like a holding bay.and so many other false teachings,..too numerous to write,
These ones were lead by smooth words and throughly convinced as Dan 11:32 states...( it appears that those who deceived them who should have known better may receive the second death )
As far as this has to happen in the time of the end....it appears since johns day it has been the final hour.
NIV 1John 2:18
Dear Children this is the last hour and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming even now many antichrists have come this. This is how we know it is the last hour.
your thoughts on Solomon and 1Kings 10:14 ...are very interesting and I will look into it more...
I am not saying something deep and dark may not lie ahead for Gods people,,,,and any witness of Jehovah may have to take a very strong stand so as not to receive The Mark Of the Beast,,,,I am expecting this to happen,
But I do not know in what form this will take,
I am just politely disagreeing with you on when the Apostasy started...
I also know you will stand firm in your belief as I will with mine...with much respect to each other anyway
With out doubt we know there is a Judas element close to Gods people...
Time is short
Separate names with a comma.