This Generation

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by apocalypse, Sep 28, 2015.

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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    The Watchtower teaches us that the prophecy by Jesus at Matthew 24 has a dual fulfilment. That being the case, how can we fit the recent teaching on "this generation" into the first century context?

    The teaching has to work in both contexts for the watchtower's teaching to hold true, primarily so the first century.

    So, how can it be made to fit?

    What was the "overlapping generation" in the first century prior to 70 CE...?
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    The WTB&TS probably changed the way they class "generation" to the modern idea similar to "Millennials", as those "who came of age" in 2000. So, that means a person born sometime in the mid-1980's. In the time of the apostles that would be anyone born up to 48 AD/CE. That would make them about 18 in 66 AD/CE. They would be old enough to understand the instructions "to flee the city".

    Of course, it matters as to what is considered a "generation".
    Generation (n.)
    early 14c., "body of individuals born about the same period" (historically 30 years but in other uses as few as 17), on the notion of "descendants at the same stage in the line of descent," from Old French generacion "race, people, species; progeny, offspring; act of procreating" (12c., Modern French génération) and directly from Latin generationem (nominative generatio) "generating, generation," noun of action from past participle stem of generare "bring forth, beget, produce," from genus "race, kind" (see genus ).

    From late 14c. as "act or process of procreation; process of being formed; state of being procreated; reproduction; sexual intercourse;" also "that which is produced, fruit, crop; children; descendants, offspring of the same parent." Generation gap first recorded 1967; generation x is 1991, by author Douglas Coupland (b.1961) in the book of that name; generation y attested by 1994. Adjectival phrase first-generation, second-generation, etc. with reference to U.S. immigrant families is from 1896. Related: Generational.
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    ... but that's not the reality of it.

    It didn't take an overlapping generation in the first century. The Romans were quite prompt.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    It's very simple, the disgusting thing (Rome) entered the Holy Place (The temple) in 70CE. This was 40 years after Jesus spoke those words, making his statement to represent those who were standing before him. The disgusting thing stood in a Holy Place within their generation in the year 70CE.

    The first century fulfillment of the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing being place was the second generation to see these prophecies fulfilled. The first being the time of Maccabees, and the final in the end.
     
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    Daz

    Daz Member

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    This is an interesting topic, I have had a few discussions about this subject, actuall I recall that this was one of the things that baffled me & didn't make sense at all so I questioned an elder about when they first announced the "overlap" at one of the meetings. I since studied this & so far my conclusions as follows:
    If we look at Matthew 24:34 which I feel has been misinterpreted by the Watchtower, my understanding of this is that it’s actually referring not to the generation from 1914 or the overlap generation from 1914 but the generation of the anointed ones present today, (Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.)
    No man-made religious organization has the divine right to tell us how we should worship our Father in heaven, but by teaching untrue doctrine this is exactly what they are doing. Jesus & his Apostles tell us to check all doctrine with scripture to make sure that they are in perfect harmony, again the scriptures do not change but remain the same. We need to be sure that those who are giving us the spiritual food are rightfully doing so with regards to God’s perfect direction via the Holy Spirit. Matthew 24:24 warns us, “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” Also at 1Timothy.4:1 there is another warning for us to heed, “Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons”.
    So when referring to the generation, it does not speak of a specific time but what it does speak of is a result.
    Let's look at the meaning – the Greek in regards to “generation” is interestingly actually speaking of something which spirit generates or something spirit creates. So the result as mentioned above is the result of that action what is generated, created.
    The “generation” referred to are those ones of whom are born or generated from spirit. There can be a righteous generation which is born of God’s spirit, with Him as Father, or the opposite resulting in a distorted and twisted generation which is born of Satan’s spirit, with him as father.
    “this generation” which is referring to a particular created group (John 6:63, 5:21. 2 Corinthians 3:6, 5:1, 1 Corinthians 15:45) will not pass away until all things occur, so could this be what Jesus was telling us, that all things prophesied about with regards to all Christ’s Chosen Ones, will happen before they pass away from the earth. The reason Jesus let’s us know this is because most of the prophecies about this group will be undergoing a complete fulfillment but without being so obviously recognized. The reason that it will not be so obviously recognized is because only few will find the road of truth to life, Revelation 12:9 makes it clear why – “So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world, he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him”. It tells the “whole world” will be deceived by Satan’s physical signs as I mention in my earlier post. “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.”- Peter 3:10. This is how I have come to understand this.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm the must simplistic form, Jesus's words were fulfilled in his disciples. 40 years after speaking of what was to occur at the temple his words were fulfilled in 66-70 CE. His disciples were the generation...
     
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    Don't believe that thinking Josh

    The writings of the prophets and the apostles show the finality of prophecy still not fulfilled.

    Joe
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I never said the event's Jesus spoke of didn't have a second or third fulfillment. His words were fulfilled in 165CE, 70CE and as well in the time of the end, but he was speaking to his disciples when he meant "this generation". Then the events from 66-70 would be an example of the time of the end fulfillment, but I have not been able to find any example of "generation" in the time of the end. I could be wrong, but it seems likely so far I'm not.

    Jesus's disciples were the generation that saw the fulfillment in 66-70CE.
     
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    Hi Joshua,
    I meant no disrespect and I agree that the 1st century brothers saw the fulfillment of the prophecy against Jerusalem.

    I was refering to the broader unfilled prophecies of old such as:

    Isaiah 2:
    2 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.

    And of course Micah 4:
    And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it peoples must stream. 2 And many nations will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 3 And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore. 4 And they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making [them] tremble; for the very mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken [it].

    I do agree that many prophecies was fulfilled in 1st century as part of the ongoing things that will continue panting on to the end of their complete fulfillment.

    Have a blessed day.

    Je
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    These prophecies were fulfilled in the 66-70 siege on Jerusalem as a first fulfillment of what is to occur in the time of the end, but I was only speaking of the "generation" comment Jesus made specifically. I haven't been able to determine that one statement has an end time fulfillment.
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    I struggled with the "Generation" definition, and indeed the entirety of the Olivet Discourse, for 30 years plus. I can honestly say, in truthfulness and humility, that I struggle with it no longer.
    And I do understand that saying this will irritate people. Sorry. I don't want to lie.

    When I read the comments, on this forum and others, of they who offer their view of a topic within the Olivet Discourse, I hear within the context of their offering the same thoughts I had myself over the years. Of course, as I spent more time on it, I came to see that these views had issues. And so I struggled on...

    I do not offer my views quickly these days, except to say the above which is probably already too much for some. Instead, I will try to politely comment on a viewpoint presented with something Jesus said.

    For instance. Of the "dual fulfillment" idea. Yes, I learned this at the Kingdom Hall since birth over a half century ago.
    What did Jesus say?

    Mt. 24:21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.
    Mr. 13:19 for those days will be days of a tribulation such as has not occurred from the beginning of the creation that God created until that time, and will not occur again.

    There is no escaping Jesus words brothers. Whatever you come up with, the event involving the "Generation" was a one-time event. It cannot be a dual fulfillment. Jesus said
    1) it had "not occurred" up to that point
    2) It will "not occur again"

    If one cannot accept Jesus words, then what does one have?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Good point Apocalypse, I hope you come comment more.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Hi All:

    When Jesus used the term "generation", did he use the term in regard to a generation that lasts a certain period of time as in a physical generation or did he use it in a different way, such as a "spiritual generation"? In John 3:3 while speaking with Nicodemus Jesus uses the word -G1080 gennao ghen-nah'-o which is often translated into English as being "born again" but literally means "to be generated". Is it the people who are being "generated" that make up the generation, or is it the act itself of being "generated" from above. If so, it give the idea of a generation a whole new meaning and the Watchtower's explanation is not so far fetched. I am not saying that I agree with their explanation, but only that it is apparent that they are looking at the word "generation" from a whole different perspective, which may not be a bad thing and may give the understanding a whole new point of view.

    Frank
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    One has to make a choice. Does one accept the point Jesus is making, or does one seek to belong with a school of thought for the sake of belonging? When I realized that I had to make a choice, the rest of the puzzle fell into place.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Hi Apocalypse:

    Would you mind being a little more specific. You speak in generalizations.

    Frank
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    I really hate being specific. I prefer others draw their own conclusions. We all feel better that way.
    I think more general statements that apply to us all help build.

    May I ask, is my statement offensive? Is it unrealistic? Is it true?
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    Some statements.
    1) The generation Jesus referred to was his own. "This" does not mean 'that'... And it came about as He said.

    2) Jesus had things to say in the Olivet Discourse that pertained to both the end for Jerusalem and the end of the world we now live in. He spoke of them separately, only once referring to them together for the purpose of demonstrating how they differed.

    3) "wars and rumors of wars" are the same thing as "kingdom rising against kingdom". Kingdom does not rise against kingdom but in war. To say otherwise is illogical.

    4) God does not send pain or suffering as a sign. Earthquakes, war and famine are not from Him. To connect these events to Him or His plan is heresy.

    5) Watchtower has never had an explanation for Luke 21:11, and they never will. You will die waiting for one. They will die before offering one. The one who knows what it means knows the Truth of which Christ said to Pilate He came to bear witness of.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    whatever you say my brother!

    Frank
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    I'd say you were very 'frank'
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    Hi Apocalypse,

    It's nice to read from you.

    Many prophecies are written in such ways, and this one in particular, that they contain what's going to take place both during their typical and antitypical fulfillments. However, some aspects of the prophecies may not be fulfilled during the typical fulfillment and may remain pending till the antitypical fulfillement, the typical fulfillment being some kind of a shadow of what the antitypical fulfillment will be. Said otherwise, there isn't always an absolute "symmetry" between both fulfillments. The difference being either quantitative (like the scale of the fulfillment, viz local vs global) or qualitative (some aspects still pending).

    As for the word "generation", I think that Jesus speaks here about the people in general who will witness those things taking place. The illustration of the fig tree shows that those who will witness the warning signs will also witness the coming of the summer, as Jesus said. It therefore includes both the people in general and his disciples (Please compare Mat.17:17 and 23:36).
     
    ExLuther and Thinking like this.

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