Two Witnesses...

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Jun 17, 2013.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Rev 11:4; "These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth."


    Zech 4:12; "What are the two bunches of twigs of the olive trees that, by means of the two golden tubes, are pouring forth from within themselves the golden liquid?" Zech 4:14; "These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth."


    Zech 3:9; "For, look! the stone that I have put before Joshua! Upon the one stone there are seven eyes. Here I am engraving its engraving," is the utterance of Jehovah of armies,"


    Zech 4:6,7; "This is the word of Jehovah to Ze‧rub′ba‧bel, saying,"˜"Not by a military force, nor by power, but by my spirit," Jehovah of armies has said. Who are you, O great mountain? Before Ze‧rub′ba‧bel you will become a level land. And he will certainly bring forth the headstone."


    Here I wanted to start off by walking you through the connection between the two appointed witnesses in Rev 11 and their description in Zech. These two witnesses are individuals and not those in the new covenant as a whole. This could only definitively be determined through chronology and we will touch base on this a bit more, however I want to touch on Zech 3. It is a very common misunderstandning that Joshua is Jesus. This is by far a complete mistake for many reasons, and let's show why. Number one, Joshua is seen in befouled garments at Zech 3:3; "Now as for Joshua, he happened to be clothed in befouled garments and standing before the angel." This is a condition of sin, and there is no way to explain this away for this sin is forgiven him in verse 4; "See, I have caused your error to pass away from upon you, and there is a clothing of you with robes of state."

    Now is this definitive? No, however we will show a couple of scriptures that are definitive. Starting with Zech 3:8; "Hear, please, O Joshua the high priest, you and your companions who are sitting before you, for they are men serving as portents; for here I am bringing in my servant Sprout!" Here it is clear that Joshua and Jesus "Sprout" are spoken of separately and distinctly. Let's also look at Zech 6:11-14; "And you must take silver and gold and make a grand crown and put it upon the head of Joshua the son of Je‧hoz′a‧dak the high priest. And you must say to him, " "This is what Jehovah of armies has said: "Here is the man whose name is Sprout. And from his own place he will sprout, and he will certainly build the temple of Jehovah. And he himself will build the temple of Jehovah, and he, for his part, will carry the dignity; and he must sit down and rule on his throne, and he must become a priest upon his throne, and the very counsel of peace will prove to be between both of them." Here you see the moment Joshua is raised, and then Jesus is presented to him. He says to Joshua, "Here is the man Sprout" then notice at the end of verse 14, "the very counsel of peace will prove to be between both of them". There it is, the absolute proof that Joshua is not Sprout, for they are of course two separate entities. The reason commentaries connect them is for they have no idea who these two are or what their work is.

    In chronology it can be determined that these two are distinctly two individuals. These two are raised after three and a half days of death. This is the only time 3.5 is mentioned in day form instead of years in Rev. These are not dead for the 1260 day period for this is the time of their preaching work in sackloth. (Rev 11:3) They are literally dead only three and a half days. So, we know they are killed at the end of their preaching work, and as well not all remaining will be killed, but changed. (1Cor15:51) Those changed become the reports out of the north that the king of the north goes forward to destroy. (Dan 11:44)

    In fact it doesn't say in Rev 11 that the two witness begin their work at the start of the 1260 days. It simply says they will prophecy in sackloth during that time. In fact they will show themselves before then. We will recognize them in their work. When these two witness the full moon at Rosh Hashanah beginning the time of the end. These two have a special relationship. Not only the love between them that exceeds any worldly understanding in which they would offer their lives for each other in an instant, but also their abilities scripturaly and relationship with Jehovah. They most certainly will compliment each other in their abilities.

    The first of which being Joshua. Given to him is a stone with seven eyes, "For, look! the stone that I have put before Joshua! Upon the one stone there are seven eyes. Here I am engraving its engraving," is the utterance of Jehovah of armies," So, how will we know this stone? Because of what verse 8 says; "˜Hear, please, O Joshua the high priest, you and your companions who are sitting before you, for they are men serving as portents; for here I am bringing in my servant Sprout!" So we see those before Joshua will see the stone with seven eyes engraved by Jehovah and will be portents to it. They will be witness to a stone with seven eyes engraved and what was prophesied coming true.

    por'·tent(pôr[​IMG]t[​IMG]nt[​IMG], p[​IMG]r[​IMG]-) n

    1. An indication of something important or calamitous about to occur; an omen.
    2. Prophetic or threatening significance: signs full of portent.

    3. Something amazing or marvelous; a prodigy.


    Could we here possibly be part of those prophesied as portents to be witnesses to the engraving Jehovah lays before Joshua? Imagine the joy and privilege to see a prophecy fulfilled first hand and to know you are one of the very first few who sees it! In fact in chapter 6 others are spoken of along side Joshua and Zerubbabel as receiving crowns right along with these two, so no doubt there are other anointed here who will be a part of the work let alone all the help from those with the earthly hope, and what a time it will be!!!

    Now how about Zerubbabel? What a privilege he has. "And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: "The very hands of Ze‧rub′ba‧bel have laid the foundation of this house, and his own hands will finish it. And you will have to know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me to YOU people. For who has despised the day of small things? And they will certainly rejoice and see the plummet in the hand of Ze‧rub′ba‧bel. These seven are the eyes of Jehovah. They are roving about in all the earth." (Zech 4:8-10) No doubt this will have something to do with the call to rebuild Jerusalem well within the time of the end...

    "These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth." (Zech 4:14)
     
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    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

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    Hi Josh

    A person who has recently started studying the Bible with me has a question. (I've been witnessing to them for several years.) They asked if I would post it on the forum.

    They want to know if the scripture at Joel 2:28,29 (where Jehovah said that "He would pour out his spirit on every sort of flesh and sons and daughters will prophesy, etc") applies to this time frame mentioned in the paragraph quoted above.

    They were interested in seeing the clarification about Joshua not being Jesus and the scriptural backing for this. Said it was a new point to them.

    Wallflower
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    That is a very good question and I always love to see someone with interest in prophecy, it is a wonderful aspect of Jehovah's word. Certainly send my brotherly affection.

    In chronology Joel 2:28,29 occurs on the most important day in the time of the end, as well as the most eventful day. That in the day of Atonement and day Jesus is given the crown. It is also the day those of the fifth seal are raised and those still alive changed as the holy spirit is poured out. (1Cor 15:52 Rev 6:10,11) One can read my work here; http://joshuastone7.com/Home_Page.php and get a better understanding of this important day.

    The short answer is that Joel 2:28,29 occurs at the end of the 1260 days. That will be 2225 days after the time of the end begins. As well that is 75 days before the first day of the new world. This information can be found under "The Joshua Stone" in the link posted above.

    To expound on your question, you asked about what I said here;
    "Could we here possibly be part of those prophesied as portents to be witnesses to the engraving Jehovah lays before Joshua? Imagine the joy and privilege to see a prophecy fulfilled first hand and to know you are one of the very first few who sees it! In fact in chapter 6 others are spoken of along side Joshua and Zerubbabel as receiving crowns right along with these two, so no doubt there are other anointed here who will be a part of the work let alone all the help from those with the earthly hope, and what a time it will be!!!"

    What I was referring to was being witness to the very next prophecy to unfold in that of news reports of WTS errors. That will occur on a Rosh Hashana such as the one coming on Sept 5, 2013 for example, starting the time of the end. My work on that can be found here; http://e-jw.org/showthread.php?267-Jewish-Holidays-Fullfilled So how exciting it will be for such a small number of us who will see these things! Imagine being (as the scripture in Zechariah says), a "portent" to the prophecies being fulfilled, having already seen it coming.

    It is exciting times at our doorstep...
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Hi Joshuastone7,
    It is interesting what you say, and the connection of the two witnesses mentioned in Zechariah and Revelation. While researching the connection of the prophesies in Zechariah and their references in the Greek scriptures, I’ve found things that seem to baffle me. This particular scripture at Zech. 4:14 is one of them. The original Hebrew does not use the familiar words normally indicating “anointedâ€￾, such as mashiyach=anointed=messiah, mischah=anointed, mashach=anoint, rub oil on, etc.

    The word used at Zech. 4:14 is ben = son, grandson, child, member of a group, and interestingly “a member of a guild, order, classâ€￾. It is literally translated in Hebrew as; “And he said, These are the two sons of fatness, they stand beside the lord of all the earth.â€￾ The English Standard Version has a foot note that reads; “Hebrew two sons of new oil.â€￾

    Another interesting point would be that John was given the explanation of the two olive trees, exactly as it was given to Zechariah. (Zech. 4:14 , Rev. 11:4)

    Exciting times are truly ahead of us.

    Tsaphah
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    It is incredible when Jehovah allows his truth to shine through and for us after so many millenia to share what he has given us with all...

    Zech is an incredible book, right along with Daniel and Rev. Chapters 1-6 discuss our day and is a vital tool in understanding the time of the end.

    Notice prophecy further when examining Zech 1:8-11, and Zech 6:1-8. These sections describe in detail the four horsemen of Rev 6 and the first 4 seals. As a side note you will notice that Rev 11:17,18 also describe these four horsemen and their work.

    Zechariah is a wonderful book. Look at Zech 1:18,19. This discusses the first 4 trumpet blasts that disperse Jerusalem in the time of the end. This is just before the last three containing the "woes" to the earth.

    As well what a great chapter 5 is. A wonderful commentary on getting rid of the sin on this planet.

    Zechariah has always been a special book to me, especially chapters 3 and 4. Without it Daniel and Revelation would be incomplete, and my work especially...

    Tsaphah, love the comments and keep up the detailed findings, it always adds to the richness of the information before us. You know our brother Utuna is a good source for original Hebrew and Greek, maybe he as well will chime in... :)

    Jehovah's spirit reside on all of us here for his work in which we present ourselves for...
     
  6. Hi Tsaphah:

    Thanks for that input on Zechariah 4:14. I never took notice to that wording before this. That will be very helpful to my research on the understanding of who the two witnesses actually are, thanks again. Also, the word translated as two (as in two sons) is H8147 shnayim shen-ah'-yim, which is an example of the Hebrew feminine dual which means two or twofold. This understanding of two (which is the Hebrew dual form) and three (which is the Hebrew plural form) is very helpful in understanding numbers in the Hebrew. This is the case with Daniel 12, where in verse 7 where it is often, almost always mistranslated as 3 1/2 times, when the Hebrew uses the singular form of ( H4150 mow`ed mo-ade') for time, and the Hebrew "plural" form of ( H4150 mow`ed mo-ade') which would be three or threefold as opposed to the dual two which is not used in Daniel 12:7. if you add singular (1) to plural (3) you would get at least 4, not to mention that the Hebrew word (H2677 chetsiy khay-tsee') literally means "the half, or middle" but has no meaning of time attached nor implied to it. If "time" were meant or implied it would have carried that sense by using some derivation of time in it. The Holy Spirit did not make a mistake in grammer or number when it inspired Daniel with these words. In Daniel 7 the Holy Spirit clearly and accurately conveyed the idea of "time"(singular form), "times"(dual form) and dividing (or half) of time (although I think this was a form of Aramaic). If the Holy Spirit wanted to convey the idea of 3 1/2 times it would have written it that way, but this was to be hidden and reserved for the last days, so it chose to write it more cryptically. Can you see what I mean or is the leaven of the Pharisees getting in the way?

    Again, thanks for that info on Zechariah 4:14, that will help me in my understanding of who the two witnesses actually are.

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Each of the two witnesses have their own prophecies in scripture. One being "Moses-Joshua" the other being "Elijah-Zerubbabel".

    Let's look a little closer at scriptures pertaining to one of the two, "Elijah-Zerubbabel" .

    "And they began to question him, saying: “Why do the scribes say that first E‧li′jah must come?â€￾ He said to them: “E‧li′jah does come first and restore all things," (Mr 9:11,12)

    "The very hands of Ze‧rub′ba‧bel have laid the foundation of this house, and his own hands will finish [it]. And you will have to know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me to ​YOU​ people" (Zech 4:9)

    “Look! I am sending to ​YOU​ people E‧li′jah the prophet before the coming of the great and fear‐inspiring day of Jehovah. And he must turn the heart of fathers back toward sons, and the heart of sons back toward fathers; in order that I may not come and actually strike the earth with a devoting [of it] to destruction.â€￾ (Mal 4:5,6)

    "E‧li′jah was a man with feelings like ours, and yet in prayer he prayed for it not to rain; and it did not rain upon the land for three years and six months." (Ja 5:17)

    "And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth. (Rev 11:3) "These have the authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying," (Rev 11:6)

    “And the second angel blew his trumpet. And something like a great mountain burning with fire was hurled into the sea. And a third of the sea became blood.â€￾
    (Rev 8:8)

    "Who are you, O great mountain? Before Ze‧rub′ba‧bel [you will become] a level land. And he will certainly bring forth the headstone. There will be shoutings to it: “How charming! How charming!â€￾
    (Zech 4:7)
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    and Jesus said if you can accept it john the Baptist was the Elijah sent to restore... now guys every thing comes in threes in the bible need I tell you that he just may be back?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    Revelation 11

    19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

    oh yea , not looking forward to this
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    “What do these two olive trees on the right side of the lampstand and on its left side mean?" (Zech 4:11b)

    "Accordingly he said: “These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth." (Zech 4:14)

    "And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth. â€￾These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth." (Rev 11:3,4)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    "Hā·’e·ḇen"

    Well, I wanted to take a moment and thank our new translation for pointing out a couple of things to me that I had not noticed until now. I will be posting a new thread on that subject but decided to post new light to me on one of my favorite subjects in that of the two anointed of Jehovah...

    Number one, I'll start with what I knew all along and have mentioned and am glad the new translation points out in Zech 3:7. I will post both the new translation and old and see if you notice the difference.

    NWT 1961; "If it is in my ways that you will walk, and if it is my obligation that you will keep, then also it will be you that will judge my house."
    NWT 2013; "If you will walk in my ways and carry out your responsibilities before me, then you will serve as a judge in my house."

    If you notice, there is a big difference between these two sentences. The first states that he will be "the" judge. While in the latest translation it states that Joshua will be "a" judge, which of course is the correct understanding. Thank you...

    Now on to some interesting new light...

    Let's look at Zech 4:10a where Joshua's companion Zerubbabel (the other of the two witnesses) is depicted.

    "For they will rejoice and see the plumb line in the hand of Ze·rub′ba·bel."

    Notice in this scripture it says that Zerubbabel is seen with a plumb line in his hand. What did our last translation use to depict that which was in his hands? "Plummet" Now plummet always gave me the idea that of a fall, but after reading our new translation and it's mention of depicting Zerubbabel with a plumb line it got me looking more into this. The original word used here is "hā·’e·ḇen". Just about every (if not all) occurrence in scripture that it is used it's translated "stone"! If you read the footnote at Zech 4:10 in our new translation it reads, *Lit., "the stone,."

    So in fact the object seen in Zerubbabel's hand is the very stone that Jehovah has put before Joshua! Now how do we know for sure? Because the last part of the verse at Zech 4:10b tells us without a doubt;

    "
    These seven are the eyes of Jehovah, which are roving about in all the earth."

    This is the very same description of the stone that is placed before Joshua at Zech 3:9;

    "See the stone that I have set before Joshua! On the one stone are seven eyes"

    So this stone seen in Zerubbabels hands is that very stone that was placed before Joshua in Chapter 3!

    Now there is another jewel that is brought out in the 4th chapter of Zechariah about the identification of this stone. Look at Zech 4, guess what original Hebrew word is used here to denote the "top stone" or "capstone"? That's right, "hā·’e·ḇen". So Zech 4:7 uses a word "hā·rō·šāh" just before, which basically means "top". So a basic dictionary definition is as this;

    Capstone

    1. The top stone of a structure or wall.
    2. The crowning achievement or final stroke; the culmination or acme.

    So there we have it. We now know what brings the shouts of "How wonderful! How wonderful!" in Zech 4:7, it's the very crowning and final stroke set before Joshua and shared by Jehovah's two witnesses. The very object that contains seven eyes from Jehovah, those seven eyes of seeing, seeing the future prophetic 7 moments to occur upon our whole earth!
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    These two witnesses have been a question mark for you, for quite some time. So let’s dig a little deeper with a few questions. Based on Zechariah 3, we have Zerubbabel (sown in Babylon), son of Pedaiah, and grand-son of Shealtiel. He was in the Royal line of kings or Israel. He was one of the descendants who came from captivity out of Babylon. (1 Chron. 3:19; Neh. 12:1) Zerubbabel was also known as Sheshbazzar (his Aramaic name given in Babylon). Cyrus gave him responsibility for the treasures to be returned to the temple in Jerusalem. (Ezr. 1:8, 11) He was also responsible as governor, to see, or oversee the construction of the rebuilding of the temple. (Ezr. 3:2, 8) He took care of the physical building. Joshua was in charge of the interior and holy utensils to be used in worship.

    From this we understand that Zerubbabel was the designated governor of the civil state of Israel. He was also “chief engineerâ€. That’s where the “plumb line†comes into the vision. In the old days of construction and surveying, the surveyor used a string or cord with a weighted object on one end. It was also called a "plumb bob". He or his assistant held the cord with the weight over a specific spot. The engineer sighted along the vertical cord and gave directions for the holder of the “plumb lineâ€, to mark the spot. If the laying of the stones to build the temple were not placed precisely in the proper spot, the top stone, “cap stoneâ€, could be off center. This particular symbolic “stone†represented Jehovah’s oversight protection in the reconstruction of the new temple. That’s why it had 7 eyes engraved in it. He let Zechariah know that no one could stop the construction. No matter how strong an army may appear, they would not have the power to stop Jehovah’s plans.

    Zerubbabel and Joshua were the two designated witnesses, to be seen by all in the country, that Jehovah’s work would be accomplished. These two witnesses were symbolic. (Zec. 3:8) One represented the governing civil power of Israel and the other represented the religious/spiritual powers. When speaking of the final placing of the cap stone, there was a great response from the people. The Hebrew word used here, is translated into English as to marvel, wonder, or symbol, and is pronounced (are you ready for this?) mo-faith’. Mowpheth.

    So, as symbolic representatives of Jehovah’s plans, getting his work accomplished, these two men stood out for everyone to see the glorious temple to be built. No military force would succeed in stopping it. Indeed, “How wonderful! How wonderful!†(Zec. 4:7 NWT) Unfortunately, you were looking for new “on spot†translation in the latest version of the 2013 NWT, this slightly misses the mark. The Hebrew word is chen, pronounced khane. It should read, “Favorable. Favorable.†Here are a just a few scriptures where the word is correctly translated in the 2013 NWT. (Gen. 6:8; 18:3; 47:25; Zec. 12:10; Pr. 3:4)

    So, bottom line here, where are you going with this? Are you using this to try to identify the two witnesses in Rev. 11? It’s prophesy. You won’t be able to identify them until the time comes. Even then, you may not recognize it until after the fact. Jehovah will reveal it at the proper time. Happens all the time.




     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I may not have stated clearly my impression of the new translation as it pertains to Zech 3-4. I didn't mean to infer that I thought the new translation was infallible or that no one else would have an opinion on how words in it might be translated in a different way, but that simply the way it was translated and its footnotes helped me to better understand Jehovah's two witnesses.

    As to your question, I don't believe the chapters in Zech can be used to identify the two anointed of Jehovah before the time of the end (other then possibly to themselves), however they will be extremely important to recognize them when the time comes, after all it is telling us how to identify them.

    Jehovah says quite clearly how we will recognize Joshua in Zech 3:9; "See the stone that I have set before Joshua! On the one stone are seven eyes; and I am engraving an inscription on it" Once he engraves the inscription it should be obvious.

    As well Zech 3:8 tells us that there are a few companions of Joshua's that will see these events and will be witnesses of it; "and your companions who sit before you, for these men serve as a sign"

    As to another part of your question, yes Joshua and Zerubbabel are the two witnesses in Rev 11, the two olive trees and lampstands standing before the Lord of the whole earth. And yes I think Zech is one place that can be used to identify these two when the time comes...

    Here is a question for you, do you think it's possible that the two witnesses might know ahead of time they will have a work to do in the time of the end and may even spend years preparing for when that time comes? Or do you think that their important work will just fall in their lap right when the end comes without preparation for what is to come? After all, the scripture in Zech 3:9 denotes the thought that the stone was put before Joshua well before it was engraved. So in that light, yes Zech could be used to recognize the two witnesses before the time of the end, but perhaps only to the two...lol ;)
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Dear T,

    I've looked up that word in encyclopedias and in my numerous Bibles and things aren't so clear-cut. The way that word is translated in the 2013 NWT is relevant. According to a footnote in Zec.4:7 (Osty), that is an acclamation related to beauty and approval, similar to "What a beauty !".
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Here, most of the Bibles and the footnotes thereof use the word "stone", "chosen stone" or "main stone". The Osty Bible says that it can't be a plummet and that to translate that word is sheer guesswork because nobody knows that which it really corresponds to. It is rather a stone (with tin) usually used by builders. It's the same stone as in verse 7 (footnote Semeur Bible).
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Exactly, and that's why it always threw me off, as I never thought anything of it to look into the original text further, however now recognizing that the word "Hā·’e·ḇen" is literally the same "Hā·’e·ḇen" at Zech 3:9, the second part of the scripture at Zech 4:10 makes sense now, it ties it right back to that same stone at Zech 3:9, "With seven eyes". So the stone in Zerubbabel's hand is the very same that was placed before Joshua...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    As everything when it comes to translation and all the more so when the meaning of a word got lost since ages ago, we must take it with a pinch of salt.

    Zechariah 4:10

    For they shall rejoice ... with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord - rather (as there is no with in the Hebrew), 'they, even those seven eyes of the Lord (cf. Zech 3:9), which run to and fro though the whole earth, shall rejoice and see (i.e., shall rejoicingly see) the plummet (literally, the stone of tin) in the hand of Zerubbabel' (Moore): the plummet in his hand indicating that the work is going forward to its completion. The Hebrew punctuation and collocation of the words, however, favour the English version, of which the sense is, They who incredulously "despised" such "small" beginnings of the work as are made now, shall rejoicingly see it going on to completion under Zerubbabel, "with" (the aid of) those seven" - namely, the "seven eyes upon one stone" (Zech 3:9); which are explained, "they are the eyes of the Lord which," etc. (Pembellus.) So differently do men and Yahweh regard the "small" beginnings of God's work. Thus "many of the priests and Levites, and chief of the fathers, who were ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice" (Ezra 3:12; Hag 2:3). Men "despised" the work in its early stage: God rejoicingly regards it, and shall continue to do so.

    (from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database.
    Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 Inc. All rights reserved.)


    Zechariah 4:10

    4:10. plumb line. The Hebrew speaks only of a tin stone. Some temple restoration projects in the ancient world featured a tin bracelet used by the one who removed the premier stone (see the comment on Zech 4:7 above). Tin was also occasionally used as a tablet for the foundation inscription.

    (from IVP Bible Background Commentary: Old Testament, Copyright © 2000 by John H. Walton,
    Victor H. Matthews and Mark W. Chavalas. Published by InterVarsity Press. All rights reserved.)

    Zechariah 4:7

    4:7. capstone. Rather than a capstone, this is more likely to be the foundation brick that is always significant in temple building and restoration. One of the most detailed temple-building accounts in ancient Near Eastern literature describes Gudea's construction of a temple for Ningirsu around 2000 B.C. The ceremony concerning the premier brick shows its centrality to the building procedure. In Neo-Assyrian texts, Esarhaddon personally brings out the old premier brick from the site of the temple so that restoration can begin. The reference to level ground here suggests that Zerubbabel is ceremoniously removing the premier brick from the prior temple to indicate that the restoration can begin.


    (from IVP Bible Background Commentary: Old Testament, Copyright © 2000 by John H. Walton, Victor
    H. Matthews and Mark W. Chavalas. Published by InterVarsity Press. All rights reserved.)


     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So, with our full understanding of the prophetic images of these two, and their historical roles, and as well the instruments and tools they used in the literal time of their lives, we come up with a great explanation of how Zechariah would have seen the visions given to him.

    Now, here in our day we know that these two chapters are a prophecy of two modern day humans, who very likely could be alive right now. So, how would these visions be applied to them? It doesn't have to be difficult, in fact it can be very simple. Such as in one of your commentaries above. "Tin was also occasionally used as a tablet for the foundation inscription." Could not all of this be leading to the conclusion that a modern day interpretation could be as simple as a piece of paper with seven spiritual appointments held by the two modern humans, literally the capstone of all scripture on one piece of paper?
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Our full understanding...? You're quite optimistic ! That's a very good quality.

    I don't believe that the two witnesses are two modern day humans. Well, you already know what I think about it.

    As for the rest,.................... no comment ! :p
     

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