Agreed, and the prophecies connect the ancient world system with the modern delusion. ... but I could certainly see some sort of "alien" deception used to explain Biblical phenomena during the conclusion. COMING from the nation-state system, which Daniel 7 links with Revelation 13. I actually find the WTS prophetic framework quite insightful, with the wrong time period, and wrong "focus". (Revelation Grand Climax, still valuable if you have a strong filter)
Jehovah has already allowed the demons to try to prove that they can govern better than he by allowing them to walk in the flesh on the earth..he ALLOWED them to take mankind at that time to the point of all out destruction. It was only thru his intervention that mankind survived to populate the earth. Jehovah would not allow him that avenue again....it has been proved beyond all doubt before the heavenly creatures and mankind that demons in the flesh doesn't work.... This is a SPIRITUAL war....between Satan and his angels and Jehovah and his angels Eph :6:12 Jehovah did away with that form of rulership at the flood..he dealt with demons in the flesh..he won't reneg on that judgment......he doesn't have to....Satan has already had that opportunity ...that particular issue of Satan being able to rule as fleshly kings over the earth has been settled. There are no scriptures at all to support this theory that is so popular on the net..Steve Quayl is big on this theory.....he is mis leading many many people. Believe me..in my years of inactivity I looked into all these theories deeply and thoroughly. These are expressions inspired of demons. The flood was a humiliating defeat for him...( as far as the spirit realm goes ) before all the heavenly spirit creatures...he lost those powers. Where as Jehovahs Angels could still materialize when ever it suited Jehovah...can you imagine how irritated Satan would be over that....so he spreads lies making out his power hasn't been limited. What we are seeing in the skies are probably a combination of things....Hoaxes, demon activity to mislead...and secret military weaponry...... As to other forms of life elsewhere...on other planets ....who can really know..the scriptures certainly don't say. Jehovah has many rooms in his mansion...who can know what are in those rooms or what he does with them. Personally I think mankind and the earth are a unique situation that will never ever be repeated again..... Proof of Jehovahs SOVEREIGNTY to rule over mankind and the heavens...thus All spiritual beings. After that issue has been settled and proven...who knows what he will do? He can do anything he wishes.
An interesting, and excellent point, Thinking. There has already been one destruction of the earth, by water, on the fallen angel-inspired society.
In my line of work, I meet a variety of people of all backgrounds. When I work with clients, I am also introduced to other family members. I've had many a conversation with some men who are into planes, cars and anything that goes. Some of them have talked about the aerodynamics of "flying saucers" or disks. They have talked in detail about the schematics and design of this sort of craft - what would be required for engine thrust, etc. I'm not an engineer but from what I have seen (in diagrams) and heard them say, this sounds feasible to me. They also talked about how there was research done on this in Germany in WW2. It is the kind of information that makes me wonder "well why can't man have designed that?" Why does it have to be from "aliens?" Man has had several decades to "play around" with this technology. Perhaps he has developed some prototypes and "roadtests" them to see how they perform.
Hi all, Quite simply put on this subject: Matthew 24: 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. What happened in Noah's days? Unfaithful angels came to earth and caused all sorts of trouble for mankind. So - just as in the days of Noah so it will be in the time of the end. This is not rocket science. Let God be found true even though every man be found a liar. There will be the same kind of intervention by unfaithful angels in our time as there was in Noah's time. If you believe or teach different are you being faithful to our lord and Savior Jesus? Let us all put our trust in Jehovah and Jesus and their living words of truth. Have a blessed day. Joe
No it's not rocket science......so why are you having so much trouble with it??? You are Adding to that scripture what is not there.... Mathew 24:37 For just as the days of Noah so the PRESENCE OF THE SON OF MAN will be. For as they were in those days before the flood eating and drinking men marrying and women being given in marriage until the day Noah entered into the ark. This is talking about the state of mankind being just like before the flood and the presence of the Son of Man at that time. Where do you get angels materializing in the flesh out of that!!! You know I would have more understanding and patience with you if you and John S had not been witnesseses before. Yet you were. Both of you....you have no excuse for this spreading and twisting of scriptures. It is you that are not teaching the thoughts of Jesus. You are both very clever in engaging ones in empty and foolish arguments that lead no where but wastes ones time...that is better spent on solid spiritual teachings. Foolishly I have been caught up in this waste of time as well....even after promising myself I wouldn't fall for it. What you do is just cause divisions and confusions ...and then say we are not teaching the scriptures. Galatians 5:9 A little leaven ferments the whole batch of dough. I won't be engaging in conversations with you or John S anymore.....as personally..and this is just for myself I would feel like this in Rev 12 Those in Pergamum cong ...Who were severely chastised for tolerating those of the sect of Nicolaus..... Sis thinking
I apologize in advance, if I am wrong in any of my thinking. I am a "meat and potatoes" gal. I'm thinking out loud here and checking to see if I am missing some kind of detail. The impression I have, is that the presence of the Son of Man, is a future event. Jesus takes up the Messianic throne. There is a war in heaven where he cleans out the demonic influence and hurls them to earth. At that time, I think I would expect to see some sort of heavenly phenomenon (what I call the "fireworks") where the demons make their presence obvious. When Jesus becomes King, he also does the inspection and judging work, beginning with the house of God, etc. Apologies for the simplistic style of this post.
Yes wallflower. The presence of the Son of man is a future event.... Mathew 24:...Immediatly after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give it light( this is what happened when Jesus actually died...it actually happened and earthquake etc, so we will have to wait to see if it will be literall or symbolic...so it will be like fireworks alright.) The verse goes on to say something really interesting........AND THE STARS WILL FALL FROM HEAVEN AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS WILL BE SHAKEN.... So just what does that mean...I don't know...Josh or Utuna might...is that when they are ousted from heaven..because that would be a mighty war that would shake the heavens??.are they the stars that fall from heaven...as I cannot see Jesus falling from anywhere. But it is only after these events that the ...SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN WILL APPEAR IN THE HEAVENS AND ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH WILL BEAT THEMSELVES IN GREIF AND THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH GREAT POWER AND GLORY.... So this is still a future event. My query is .....is Satan and his hoards released before the tribulation..or after the tribulation..because vs 29 says Immediatly after the tribulation....the stars fall and the heavens are shaken.....are the heavens shaken because there is a war going on.???? Years ago I was told by a older brother that the heavenly war would last 3 1/2 years ...I have no idea where he got that from...but perhaps that's why we will have tribulation for 3. 1/2 years....( coinciding with the apostles being left alone for three days while Christ was dead ,,,a day for a year thing )...this I also was told by an old annoited sister...they never used to spread these gold nuggets around...they were careful,who,they shared them with..... . I'm confused at what stage they are thrown down to earth. I am eternally grateful for those older annoited ones .....I never really understood what they were saying ...and they didn't speak up to many.....I,see now they were wise not to...they had so much patience ..they were very humble....yet now their words are starting to make sense ..and sadly they are long dead. It will be the worst time in human history for mankind ...but nowhere does the scripture indicate that the demons will be in the flesh. First and foremost this will be a spiritual warfare....that is the most important issue here.....it must be a very fierce war...as the prince of Persia ( demon ) fought with Gabriel and held him at bay for some weeks.and Michael had to come to his rescue........no wonder the powers of the heavens will be shaken......we humans sort of are a secondary issue that Jehovah holds an accounting with. I am sure Josh will correct what I have wrong here I think I will be very glad to go into my interior rooms while the denunciation passes over...I,guess we will hear and feel it...just as the Isralites were in their homes and heard the cries of the Egyptians when their first born died..... You know there is a movement on the net that aliens will come here..and perhaps they will try to trick us that way.....in the heavens I can see this...but they won't be on the earth In The flesh Sis thinking By the way your style was not simplistic....I am meat and potatoes too
There you go.... Powers of the heavens shaken....stars falling from heaven, etc. The 'third of the stars of heaven', come back with Satan after the Heaven War. A brother said this war was 3 1/2 years long? I seriously doubt its even over yet, and its been going on since Jesus received Kingdom power and the throne of David as foretold in Rev. 6...so maybe 100 years...and still Satan has not come yet, or Christianity and Babylon would be under siege. Still peace and plenty of latitude for religion. These developments, the 'Great Tribulation',....is not Armageddon, but the heat of domination...total...by the Wild Beast...and the reign of terror, including the destruction of all religion other than the worship of the Wild Beast, and the marking of loyal Beast worshipers, and torment of Christians and others who hold out is what we will see, as prophesied. This is the Great Tribulation....the 'hour of test', as Jesus said, that is coming upon the whole earth. ( Rev. 3:10) This will no doubt take time, too. WT always tries to hurry things up....to keep excitement and adrenaline flowing so more people will 'pioneer'... But God and the angels and humans all take time to do things...nothing is instant; according to scripture, even. God took 7 'days' to create earth, etc. You better believe when Satan and these NEW stars of heaven get here , there will commence the beginning of a whole new concept of governing for this earth; total domination, just as he did before the Flood. These are not the imprisoned demons, who are busy around us now and have been for 2000 years, just as they were in Jesus' day. This is a whole new breed of cat....from heaven. The stars....way up there....in a universe we may..or may not have seen. But, they have been fighting angels of Michael, and have been forcibly cast out and defeated, but now are mean...nasty...bent on evil revenge...and will take the earth like Grant took Vicksburg, as they say in the 'Ol South'.
Hi All, I took a couple of days to think on this before making a reply. I would like to say first of all that I consider it a privelege to be able to comment on this and other forums and do not wish to cause problems for anyone. So first of all I wish to apologize to sis thinking if I offended you. We all have different experiences in life an a unique perspective of things. With regards to being a part of the watchtower organization it is true in my case. I was baptized February 27th 1967 at the age of 15. Got married at age 20 to a young sister my age and we over the years produced with Jehovah's blessing 6 children. So I have seen the organization change very much over the years that I was a approved member. In 2003 I started in earnest to read just the bible - mostly the New World Translation but many others also as a comparison for accuracy of the thoughts of our Father. I wanted to be as the Beroean's and check everything that I had been taught with scripture. And do as the Apostle John said to test every inspired expression. I became obvious to me that the Organization was very much like the nation of Israel and the prophecies about those servants of God are very relevant today. Micah 3: 11 Her own head ones judge merely for a bribe, and her own priests instruct just for a price, and her own prophets practice divination simply for money; yet upon Jehovah they keep supporting themselves, saying: “Is not Jehovah in the midst of us? There will come upon us no calamity.” 12 Therefore on account of YOU men Zion will be plowed up as a mere field, and Jerusalem herself will become mere heaps of ruins, and the mountain of the house will be as the high places of a forest. Is it not true that the watchtower organization is unique in it supporting itself by saying "Is not Jehovah in the midst of us?" They boldly have said: "You should trust us because Jehovah and Jesus trust us." Is this not true? Micah covered this kind of thinking and speech in a very direct way: Micah 7: 5 Do not put YOUR faith in a companion. Do not put YOUR trust in a confidential friend. From her who is lying in your bosom guard the openings of your mouth. 6 For a son is despising a father; a daughter is rising up against her mother; a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; a man’s enemies are the men of his household. 7 But as for me, it is for Jehovah that I shall keep on the lookout. I will show a waiting attitude for the God of my salvation. My God will hear me. Am I missing something here? Did not the psalmist also say in two different places to not put our trust in men? Just now have company come to my house - so will finish my reply and get to the point about my unique situation with the organization and what the demons and Satan are with regards to the Good News of the Kingdom. Joe
Hi all, My son's have left and I can continue' On a personal note the prophesy of Micah has had a unique fulfillment in my casel Micah 7: 8 Do not rejoice over me, O you woman enemy of mine. Although I have fallen, I shall certainly rise up; although I dwell in the darkness, Jehovah will be a light to me. 9 The raging of Jehovah I shall bear—for I have sinned against him—until he conducts my legal case and actually executes justice for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall look upon his righteousness. 10 And my enemy will see, and shame will cover her, who was saying to me: “Where is he, Jehovah your God?” My own eyes will look upon her. Now she will become a place of trampling, like the mire of streets. In my case the watchtower organization has accused me of apostacy which cannot be proved scriptiurally''' Does any of you believe that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses are infallible with there interpretation of scripture? If so How does this differ witth the Catholic church Which claims to support for scripture that includes the teaching that the Pope is the vicar of Jesus. Jehovah and his spirit has make me know that true understandiing does not originate with men of any religion of men. While you are of the opinion that the watchtower organization represents Jehovah's view of spiritual matters I wish you to remind your that Just as Jehovah's ways are higher than man's ways so are His ways are Higher than the thoughts of men. Are you smarter than Jehovah? I really do not care about your reply - May Jehovah be found true though every man be found a liar. With regards to how satan and the demons manifest themselselfes I have no comment. Will it be with literal manifesttation in a physical way? I do not know? I do not teach or believe one way or the other - we will see one way or the other. To believe the watchtowers model of how this will occur is complete fantasy in my opinion. If I am wrong then it will be on me and the spirit will prove me correct or wrong. Fair enough or have I missed completely the message of the Good News of the Kingdom? Your brother in Christ Joe
"In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him , nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. "John 1:1-5 NIV How can we better understand this ? Jesus is God, yet with God? There are no examples anywhere in life where two persons , or beings with any intellectual function are the very same being...as they have two intellects....brains, minds, desires. Let's let Jesus give light to this . John 17:5 "And now , Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." NIV Now, twice we read where Jesus was with God in the beginning. ,,,Not God, really...but something else: he and God are so alike, that talking to...being with...and learning from Jesus...is just the exact same thing as talking to the Father, and anything else. He is exactly like his Father, as other scriptures maintain. ..."spittin' image". Look at this scripture; Col. 1:15-19 "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn, over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him, to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. " It is high time Jehovah's worshipers , JW's, or others who love Christ and the Father, get the truth from the scriptures; God, Jehovah, the Father of Christ made Jesus....as the term SON implies....then taught him everything...all...and then because of how Jesus responded in the most positive way...has given him the privilege of creating all other things in the realm of creation, life, existence. This was a gift TO THE SON from a loving, and appreciative Father. We humans ...our very existence ...comes from the hand of Christ Jesus....BUT ,,,the Father instructed him, and empowered him with this ability. Christ only operates on the power of Jehovah's holy spirit, evidently. This helps us explain other scriptures, such as Genesis 1:26 "Let US make man in OUR image..." God is still at the wheel, but Christ is now learning how to create a universe..and God is giving him total control of it, and anything else the Son wishes to do or make...because he completely trusts his Son, and knows every though of his son is just like his own. Prove this by reading John 8:29 "The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." There is a unique relationship , this between Father and Son. They wish to be in contact at all times , apparently. This is accomplished with the helper, the holy spirit of God, which is so powerful, it can be everywhere and anywhere all at one time. This is how powerful Jehovah God is. Omnipresent. This is why Jesus could say, "Just as I hear I speak." In other words, God is inside his mind at all times, and he and the Father are constantly communicating....to the point Jesus is "One" with God...and their minds are melded together in this way. Now...this whole reality of becoming "One" with God....is why Jesus said to his listeners, "He that has seen me, has seen the Father...I and the Father are one." Let's read some verses from John 14...NIV verses 5-11 "Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Phillip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered, " Don't you know me , Phillip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say ,'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves." So, through the holy spirit this is accomplished, kind of like via the internet I am able to speak one on one with you, and send pictures, even, to communicate a world away...night or day. It is technology originally placed into being by Father Jehovah, and we...Christ's followers, are instructed to tap into this 'technology from God'...so to speak....so we can become "One" in a similar manner as Christ had while on earth...and maybe someday, the anointed sons of God will have the same oneness Christ has with Father when he was resurrected. We'll wait to see. "If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me, and I am in you." John 14:15-20 When once one has been born of the waters of truth Jesus describes in John 4...and gets baptized , entering a covenant for a Kingdom and repenting and receiving forgiveness of his sins; then God can pour out his spirit upon this one, and he will be re-born into a oneness with God...and a future with God and his Son eventually right there in the heavens with them. But even now, while on earth, a oneness can be cultivated, and strengthened, to the point that Christ will use you as his spokesman, and other duties. Notice what he says here at John 14:12-14 "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name and I will do it." verse 14 in the literal Greek, according to Wescott and Hort reads, "'if ever anything you should ask me in the name of me this I shall do." So....if we are anointed with God's spirit, according to Romans 8, and this scripture, we can comfortably talk to Jesus as well as Father Jehovah, and Jesus and Jehovah can and will hear us, and do what needs to be done through us. In this way, the 'spirit of Christ'...and... the spirit of the one who 'made Christ'...will come inside us and dwell. This is big news...is it not? How would you like to acquire this intimacy with God and Jesus? You can! And are encouraged to do just that. That is the another main part of the message; "The Good News of the Kingdom" Every anointed 'son of God'...'new creation'...'chosen one' ...who has this spirit, knows it is an actual fact. But this is UN-explainable to those who have not experienced it, just as Jesus said...so did Paul at 1 Cor. 1 and 2 "...these are things God has revealed to us by his Spirit." 1 Cor. 2:10 So, if others doubt we are anointed, and mock us, well, we should expect that, and not be so eager to throw this fact out there to be trampled on the next time, right? But it is hard, because we are undergoing a miracle we can hardly believe ourselves, right brothers and sisters? And it is such a blessing and a privilege we have received this, even though we are sinners. We also know others, too, have been invited, and we are commanded to EXTEND that invitation to all we meet, as this is the original , "Good News of the Kingdom". It has never been commanded by Christ to alter it...and WT and other religions who have done this will have Jesus to answer to for that. (Rev. 22:18,19) So, be careful what we are saying is the 'truth' when we are preaching God's word. We must stick faithfully to Jesus' words. This we will do, once we are 'One' through the spirit adoption/rebirth process described at John 3:1-6
Hi John: You assume that the beginning that is spoken about in John 1:1 was "the" beginning, meaning the beginning of the Universe, but is that really what is being spoken about here. In John 1, when the Bible uses the word "world" does it mean the universe both physical and spiritual or does it mean the "world" alienated from God through sin? I think it means the latter, and that this "world" alienated from God was made even possible in the first place because Jesus, who was with God in the sense that he was the only created being at the time that was truly "with God", agreed to give his life, actually both of them (physical and angelic) to redeem mankind. By doing this Jesus in the strictest sense "created" the world and everything in it because without a promise to pay the ransom "the world" had no legal basis to go on ( and Duet 32:2 assures us that Jehovah does everything in justice or legally). So, everything and everyone that exists and has existed in this "world" alienated from God only exists by virtue of Jesus willingness to die on behalf of Adam and ransom him. If he or no one else agreed to do so, there was no legal reason for Jehovah God to allow the "world" alienated from him to continue to exist. This is the way that Jesus made all things in this world, by his agreement to ransom mankind, "the world". You don't really understand this very basic scripture, but you are not alone, most don't because they "assume" way too much. By the way, look at an interlinear of the scriptures and it does not say "the beginning" anywhere in that verse and neither is it implied. So, just as it is implied that Jesus is "a" God and not "the" God (who is only ever Jehovah) it also is implied that beginning is "a" beginning and not "the" beginning or it would have said that in the Greek. Frank
According to the Greek, the word used at John 1:1, is arche (ar-khay'), according to Strong’s, having the meanings of: 1. beginning, origin 2. the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader 3. that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause 4. the extremity of a thing a. of the corners of a sail 5. the first place, principality, rule, magistracy a. of angels and demons This word comes from the primary word archo (ar’-kho) which means: to be chief, to lead, to rule. In the context of what John has written, he is referring to “the word” as the subject. This word is also used in the Greek Septuagint at Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth.” In this verse the subjects are “heavens” and “earth”. If we look at the use in both verses, we should conclude that it is about the “creation” or action of God. If we look at other uses within the Greek scriptures, along with the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew, we find that the meaning is “first”. The word used in Hebrew for beginning is re’shiyth (ray-sheeth’), which according to Strong’s is: 1. first, beginning, best, chief a.beginning b. first c. chief d. choice part At John 1:1 the beginning is speaking of Jesus as the “word”. It is also implied that he is the beginning of Jehovah’s creation. This should be understood because the following verses 2 through 5. He is also referred to by Paul as the firstborn (prototokos=first kind). “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.” (Col 1:15-18 NIV) When Jesus says to do, or ask for things in His name, it is not by saying His name, but by the authority of His position as the King of the Kingdom.