I have to be brief, VERY brief here (on the clock, shhh), but would be interested in knowing more about how you would respond to someone who says this view sounds pretty much like re-incarnation?

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20121201/have-you-lived-before/

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/reincarnation-in-the-bible/

--Tim

 

Well, I did give you the simple answer!

Now I will endeavour to explain it better.

As 1Cor 15:51 follows on from v50 It stands to reason that the body is changed somewhat! He was raised in the spirit. Or by the power of God.

1 Cor 15:44 says they are raised in a spiritual body, (body) not just raised a spirit. "Spiritual" is descriptive of the body. Could this now mean that they have a body empowered by spirit and driven by spirit rather than a body of old flesh and old blood driven by the old spirit that was sensual and corrupt, but are now of a new spirit, a new person in Christ and so now reflect in their bodies that which shows they are spiritual and not fleshly.

Jesus is the new man, the new creation. The beginning of all those who will inherit eternal life, Jesus is the first-born of many brother, (that is fellow humans like himself, except Jesus is sinless).

Only Jesus is a legitimate heir who is God's natural born son being begotten by God to Mary, Chosen to be a spiritual son when baptised with the spirit. All others are adopted as sons by the same spirit as we are not natural procreated by God but adopted to be sons because we have earthly fathers.

A resurrection is a regeneration of you before you died. The kernel or the person we are on the outside while the person we are on the inside is renewed from day to day as we conform to the image of Jesus.

Through out our life our body changes naturally, from when we were a baby, a child, a teenager, an adult and as an older person. Our body is like the kernel of a seed that holds the life of that seed within itself, when the seed falls to the ground and begins to grow the new life comes into existence and the old shell dies, and new life begins. We died to our self when we dedicated our life to God. We are of the new creation.

We are similar adopted to be children of God in our body of flesh by the spirit. But we are chosen to be a new life after the image of Jesus, and so by developing a proper relationship, our old self is replaced by the new self.

So how we appear now on the outside will not be noticeable when we have been changed to the spiritual. Either at Jesus return or at the time of the resurrection.

So the old person of flesh and blood will not be able to see God, but the new man will. Happy are the peaceful since they will see God. They will be regenerated pure and sinless as their exemplar brother Jesus.

Hope this has been informative!

Have peace brother.

 

I don't remember,saying precisely it was metaphor, I was referring to the words of Paul, indicating a change.

** 1 Cor15:51 ...We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed .

We progressively change throughout our life. From a baby to adult, it is said that our human cells are progressively changed every several years. In other words we do not have the same body we had 10 - 15 years ago. But “the life” (that is the principle of life or spirit of life remains constant) we identify with our “self” the inner being (What we are at heart). That inner being is governed by our desires to satisfy the flesh, it is sensual. Because our desires lead us to do things in excess of how we were designed we sin and hence our consciousness condemns us and we feel guilt towards God.
God has given us a way out of that condition. By giving us his son as an example. He did not sin and so we accept what he has done for us and vow as it were to live according to his example forgetting about our “self” interest and changing to do what is God's will. Some say it is a conversion, a willingness to change the desires of the flesh to the desires of the spirit that God gives us.
That spirit is the spiritually begetting of us to be spiritually adopted children of God who will be sinless in the future. We will have that perfect body that we was originally had by Adam. We are created new by the in dwelling of the spirit, the new life according to God's standard of righteousness.
Our appearance will change to reflect that new inner spirit that renewal of life that conforms to Gods way. Which will take place on Jesus return or at the resurrection. No longer driven by the fleshly desires to satisfy the flesh but by the new spirit to satisfy the desires of the spirit.

Love!

 

Well, to me Joshua, the context calls for it, the principle that all die because of Adam, are all made alive in Christ. The whole chapter basically is talking about the principles of the resurrection. If the dead are not to be raised up than our preaching is in vain.

** 1Cor,15:21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

** Acts 17:31 Because he has set a day on which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead.

It is true some will be alive (who are in Christ) and do not see death before Christ arrives. But they will have their mortal bodies changed to reflect their new spirit.

A person in the grave has paid the price of sin by suffering death. However, it is no point being dead and freed of sin if your not alive. To be released from the dead they need the free gift of new life free from the old spirit that govern their mortal bodies.

If they have died in Christ than they will rise first, each in order. They are given the free gift of new life changed to reflect the new creation. They will stand before God like the first Adam, only now they have a new Adam a new exemplar who has shown us the way to live.

God's blessings IABB

 

I think I'm caught up to this particular post insofar as the topic is concerned. I wanted to make sure I contributed my thoughts on what has been discussed between @Joshuastone7 and @iamabetterboy and then get to the inevitable responses my two-cents' worth bought me.

If there's something someone would like me to address previous to the first follow-up post left for me, please let me know-- I got a bit distracted when I touched on what I felt were statements or actions shared between the primary participants that led to a drastic breakdown in the discussion. ​

Well, Jehovah could've skipped the millennia of self-destructive behavior of humans and the influence of demons therewith, the imperfections, diseases, etc., and skipped right to the end rather than the way He chose to carry out His Purpose.

Be that as it may, your observations here illustrate the difference between how the synoptic Gospels thought about Jesus and how the high Christology of the Johannine gospel portrays Jesus. I'm fairly confident that if the Johannine gospel wasn't a part of our canonized scriptures, we'd be having a very different conversation here. But it was canonized by the Roman Catholic Church and here we are.

Since you write "His being the 'image of God' just as Adam... does not rule out the possibility of heavenly origins," it seems like the burden would fall on you to demonstrate how Jesus can be considered the equivalent of a sinless Adam without factoring in Adam's own "heavenly origins."

For me, personally speaking here, for Jesus to have had a heavenly pre-existence prior to his birth to Mary and Joseph, is a tipping of the scales of equivalency demanded by divine Justice... something Satan would've surely jumped on as proof that Jehovah God was capricious, at best, as Satan went around trying to find supporters of his conclusions. "After all, to get His way," Satan would say before the angelic myriads, "all Jehovah does is give himself an unfair advantage, taking an archangel (inherently more powerful and resilient than mere mortals) and putting that archangel into human form."

Jesus, to my present understanding, wasn't the greater Adam because he originated in the heavens, but because he proved to be what Adam failed to be. Had Adam remained in subjection, we wouldn't be having this conversation, either.

Your stated observation likewise creates a theological dilemma, in that there was no way Adam could have remained sinless, that it took some(thing) greater than Adam was from the start, that it would take an angel or archangel to pull it off. Certainly no man born of woman after Adam could do so— but Adam could've, surely! Or, was Adam's decision pre-determined and inevitable? A very slippery slope to explore, I feel.

Even if one takes the position that while Jesus had a greater existence before he was born as a human, and that when he was (reincarnated) as a human he was subsequently bound by the finite existence and limitations of humanity, suggesting that it doesn't somehow matter that Jesus was formerly an archangel— this still leaves us with the disturbing issue that unless Adam himself had likewise had a previously heavenly existence corresponding with that of Jesus, the "debate" was rigged in Jehovah's favor and Adam could do nothing BUT fail in this test of submission of self will to that of the Father's Will.

No, I would prefer to believe, based on my reading of the passages in question here, that Jesus was a corresponding or equivalent to Adam in every way but one: he subjected himself to the Will of the Father even unto death, and that by his doing so he proved himself the greater Adam... what Adam should've proved to be. Heavenly pre-existence is succinctly removed from the equation as a result. Rather than the scales of divine Justice being tipped in Jehovah's favor, they are appropriately balanced out. Where Adam could've experienced endless generations of descendants all loyal to our Creator, Jesus replaces Adam and subsequently has seen generations of followers (children) as a result of his unfailing, unwavering obedience, instantly resetting the world stage back to just before Adam's failure. It's as if Adam had never disobeyed in the first place.

Deja vu, without the endless drama thereafter. Humans, version 2.

I would certainly concur that the Johannine gospel promotes the view that Jesus had a heavenly pre-existence, or, at a minimum, is just ambiguous enough so as to be taken by some to mean that.

Still, I should offer some clarity here: I am very comfortable discussing our Greek Christian scriptures either way: as a body of writings that were possibly never intended by their respective writers to be taken as scripture on par with the Law (read: the Five Books of Moses) and the Prophets; or, as unadulterated, inspired writings whose preservation was handled by God Himself.

It really comes down to the context of the discussion, and I try not to cross the boundary between my two views in order to bolster a point I might be making. I do not feel it is helpful to declare a counterpoint as invalid because of a textual and canonical aspect, so that I can gain (an advantage) in making my own argument. It can be challenging, for sure! LOL

But in all seriousness, I really do try to compartmentalize the disparate views so as to not cause additional fuzziness during discussions.

I'm pretty sure I agree with you on this.

At the same time, there are plenty of other followers of Jesus who believe that these manifestations of Jehovah in times past were actually Jesus himself, in consideration of John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12.

It could be the lateness of the hour here, but I'm not understanding this last quoted part of your post, so I hope it's alright if I say "Okay," and keep going here.

I can answer the last question easily enough: Without sin, there would never have been a need for the corresponding sacrifice Jesus provided through his full obedience to the Will of our Father in the heavens.

So, No. Jesus would never have existed. Redemption wouldn't have been needed, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. ^_^

Let me pause here, though, and return when my thoughts are refreshed from a good night's sleep. Then, I'd like to address the above-quoted segment of your post, along with the remainder of the post.

Have a blessed night, one and all!
Timothy

 

Joshua, I do not quite understand your point? What is it you perceived (in the what I said) that you feel is not in the chapter regarding the principles of the resurrection?

** 1Cor,15:21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

1Cor 15:51-52 is still talking about the dead being raised up even though some will be alive when Jesus returns. Everyone on earth will not be dead. But all those (dead in Christ) and (all those alive in Christ) at the time of Christ return will be changed to a sinless condition. The dead will rise in a sinless condition, and those alive will changed to the same condition. Their mortal bodies changed to put on uncorruption.

** 1Cor 15:52 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed

Are you thinking that everyone in Christ should remain sinful and not be changed??

Let me ask you is not 1 Cor 15:21 about all those who have died. (And not just those who died in Christ)??

 

To me the "we" are those who are (alive in Christ) at the time of his return, these will be changed. The dead on the other hand have paid for their sin having died as a consquence of sin and have paid the penatly for sin. The wages of sin is death.

Therefore, the sinful condition of those who have paid the price for sin. Cannot be bought back as sinfuf people but stand as free people. Their condition change to reflect the true justice of God. However, I would just like to say that not everyone is dead in Christ. And on Jesus return only the dead in Christ and those alive in Christ will be changed or resurrected at this time. The rest (Abraham, Isaac and others) will be in Gods due time and in order.. But the principle of the resurection will be the same. IMHO Cheers!

 

On Jn 8:58.

** Jn8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

I would just like to spend a little more time considering how I understand this scripture. But first the two most common views are that Jesus is God because he uses the I AM (assumed to = God) and the view Jesus is an angel and therefore existed before Abraham.

It is all matter of assumption. Jesus is a man, and he identifies himself as a MAN v40. The Bible at other place say he is about 30-33 years of age.

So it is not possible for a man to live that long to have been before Abraham. So it is assumed or interpreted than that he is an angel, or God. And not really a true man as he said he is at v40.

So Trinitarians and WTS interpret that Jesus has a pre-existence, he is really older than what the Bible says he is. Therefore, the passage is obviously not literal. If it was literal, than Jesus who is a man must have been a man before Abraham was born.

Without, altering the meaning of the word “man” to mean something other than what it means. Can Jesus have been speaking spiritually / figurative in some other way? I believe he was! And the context seems to show that.

He is speaking of the Jews remaining in their sins if they do not believe him, (spiritually speaking,) He starts the chapter saying I am the light of the world, (spiritually speaking,) he said they were of their father the devil (spiritually speaking), they were from the realm below (spiritually speaking.)

The whole of this chapter Jesus is speaking mostly spiritually or figuratively. I'll use just the word spiritually as it conveys pretty well the same meaning as figuratively.

So there is good reason for me to believe Jesus words for the rest of the chapter are also mostly spiritual.

Let me now quote the final verses of this Chapter in full to see the intent of Jesus words! I'll put how I understand them in parenthesis after each verse.

** v53 You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died, are you? The prophets also died. Who do you claim to be?”
(Here the Jews make the charge: are you greater than Abraham? And Who do you claim to be)

** v54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God.
(Jesus proceeds to answer their charge by first relying on God to glorify him than seek glory for himself.)

** v55 Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.
(Jesus makes the counter charge that they do not know God, and they should have, being religious leaders. And than he shows he is relying on God's word (logos) saying HE is observing His word. A very important point in understanding the rest of the scriptures, as Jesus goes on to quote God's word in his defence, scriptures the Jews should have been familiar with)

** v56 Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
(Here Jesus is quoting scripture, they should have understood saying, Abraham rejoiced to see his day.

How had Abraham seen Jesus day? By his eyes of faith, he was to kill his son but God prevented him and provided a substitute sacrifice a lamb caught in the thicket, How Abraham must have rejoiced in seeing that to receive his son back picturing the resurrection? That drama, the lamb pictured Jesus. The lamb of God who was to take their sins away was standing right before the unbelieving Jews)

** v57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”

(NOTICE, Here the Jews misquote Jesus by thinking Jesus had spoken of his age!! But Jesus had not, but was simply saying, ABRAHAM had seen his day???)

** v58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”
(This portion of scripture is translated to give the impression Jesus existed before Abraham because it is assumed He was talking of his age. But Jesus instead was speaking spiritually of himself being the lamb slaughtered before the founding of the world through whom the blessing would come and so Jesus is before Abraham in priority as he is the first to receive God's blessings. Therefore in that sense Jesus is before Abraham in authority and therefore in answer to the Jews claim of being greater than Abraham, Jesus answers He is! Or as I am.)

** v59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple

(Well they looked for all kinds of flaws to condemn him. And this was but one of those occasions.)

 

You do not believe this!

You do believe he was an angel!

You believe he was a son in heaven. You believe he pre-existed. What you are saying above is not truth!

You believe he had the mind of an angel! To have memories of his past life.

To me Jesus is a man who's father is Jehovah and his mother is Mary. Matt 1:16,18,20. Out of God's holy spirit and out of Mary = the origin of Jesus named 8 days after his birth in the first century. = his only begotten son.

Sorry Joshua! Men just do not pre-exist themselves (and we are not talking about a resurrection) and they especially do not pre-exist their mothers.

The rest of your explanations are based on ambiguous scriptures and assumptions to "claim" he was an angel and had a pre-existence.

You simply contradict yourself!

Please take care.

 

If he not an angel and was a man nothing less and nothing more than how can a man who is about 33 jears of age age lived million of years to have had a glory before the world began?

If he is not an angel but a man nothing more and nothing less who is about 33 years of age say, he was before Abraham who lived many hundreds of years before hand?

You have to justify somehow that he is an angel in the form of a man!

 

No I don't want to play the contradiction game!
Sorry, I don't see the contradiction in what I said, what I did do, was clarify the time of those dead in Christ, are raise first along with those who are alive in Christ who will be changed when he returns as opposed to other faithful people who are still dead in the grave that I understand is at a later time..

The simple truth is we will all be changed! One way or another.