So, you accept that the image in Dan represents different world powers, but you don't think the 7 heads are those same world powers with the addition to Egypt and Assyria? You don't think the 'one is' was Rome?

Okay, even if you don't think so, the question is about one head ruling at a time. If it is speaking about the period in Rev as you claim and it goes down when you say, and 5 heads fall then, it still could only be the 6th head/the one that is at that point of going down, because the 7th is still yet to come even though the head is seen on the beast and the 8th king has to come after the 7th head/king remains for a short while.

[10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.]

So, the fact that Mark and Matthew describe Luke's time as the time of the GT, that doesn't mean anything to you?

[23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]

[17 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 18 Keep praying that it may not occur in wintertime; 19 for those days will be days of a tribulation such as has not occurred from the beginning of the creation that God created until that time, and will not occur again.]

[19 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.]
_______________________

Let's take what you have said so far, and you tell me if this is how you see it:

Apostasy Sept 10, 2029
[11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name. 18 This is where it calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is a man’s number, and its number is 666.]

May 2, 2032
[31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature..]

Appointed times of the nations are 42 months/1260 days from May 2nd, 2032, till Oct 13th, 2035
[24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]
[5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]

DT put in place/GT is from 11/12/35 to 11-22-35
[31...“And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively. 33 And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many. And they will be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days.]
[21...great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.]

Jesus appears Nov 22, 2035- The sixth seal, ten days after the disgusting thing is placed.
[12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, 13 and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”]
[19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

 

I agree with everything you said in this post [#165], except that the sword stroke - if we want to give it an extra-Biblical name, 'WW3' - is not 'nation against nation' for the contextual reasons I have given.

Luke and the other two accounts are complementary to each other, and should be read and interpreted that way.

Reference to the sword stroke is absent in Christ's end time narrative, because it precedes the attack on 'a holy place,' and is therefore not the focus of His attention.

'Nation against nation' comes immediately after the tribulation that they have brought on God's people, and is actually God's battle of Armageddon, as described in Zec 14:13-16:

“And it must occur in that day that confusion from Jehovah will become widespread among them; and they will actually grab hold, each one of the hand of his companion, and his hand will actually come up against the hand of his companion. 14 And Judah itself also will be warring at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the nations round about will certainly be gathered, gold and silver and garments in excessive abundance. 16 And it must occur that, as regards everyone who is left remaining out of all the nations that are coming against Jerusalem, they must also go up from year to year to bow down to the King, Jehovah of armies."


Harry

 

Do you think that these two accounts are referring to the same time:

[7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.]

[” 2 And I saw, and look! a white horse, and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest.3 When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” 4 Another came out, a fiery-colored horse, and it was granted to the one seated on it to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another, and he was given a great sword.5 When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and look! a black horse, and the one seated on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 I heard what sounded like a voice in the midst of the four living creatures say: “A quart of wheat for a de·narʹi·us and three quarts of barley for a de·narʹi·us; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine.”7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!” 8 And I saw, and look! a pale horse, and the one seated on it had the name Death. And the Grave was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.]

 

No, it is not true that only one head received the sword stroke and got healed, because in Re 13:12 it says that the death stroke on the 'wild beast' was 'healed,' meaning, the whole beast, not just its head.

The head may represent the US or western civilization as a whole, but its fall will take down the whole world with it.

 

LOL!

[3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.]

I guess I could stop there.

Whenever it talks about the beast as a whole even though it has 7 heads, look at like this:

The beast has one body 7 different heads. If all heads were active at the same time, the one beast body would go in all different directions, unless all were in agreement working together all the time. Instead, what you have is the 1st head active and the rest dormant. Then when the 2nd becomes active, 3-7 are still dormant but the first is dead and so on down the line. Now when it gets to the 7th because it is the last active head, the first six being dead, then if something happens to that 7th head the whole beast dies. This is why when this head gets the fatal wound it is as the whole beast is dead because there are no others heads at that point to control the body. So when this head gets healed it is as though the whole beast did because it as a whole is active again.

[12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed.]

[14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived.]

[9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while.]

 

I don't think that Jesus is the rider of the white horse in Re 6, because, among other things, in verse 10, the souls of the slaughtered saints are still waiting for Christ to come and avenge them.

So, no, 'nation against nation' is when Jesus comes, and all the tribes of the earth will lose it as they turn on each other, because all is lost.

'Before' 'nation rises against nation,' 'people will lay their hands upon you and persecute you' during the great tribulation, and only after that, 'nation will rise against nation.' Lu 21:12

Math 24:7,7, Mark 13:8, and Lu 21:10,11, are all a pericope about the same event, as indicated by it forming a separate paragraph in the text, because Jesus, when introducing 'wars and rumors of wars' is jumping ahead to 'nation against nation' - which is even more than just 'wars and rumors of wars' - so as not to take as the asked for sign of His coming; hence His side tracking in this pericope to forestall any misunderstanding, and to clarify His point in anticipation of their getting it wrong.

The disciples were asking for a sign, while Jesus was more concerned about them being mislead by one.

Also, He does not give a sign of what will happen during His parousia, as WT and RK falsely claim, but a sign to take place before His 'coming and consequent presence' with His disciples, and here He is expressly warning them that even 'wars and rumors of war' are not a sign of His coming.

There is no 'composite sign' as WT and RK falsely claim; to His disciples - if they are able to use discernment - the standing in a holy place by the disgusting thing causing desolation, will be a 'sign,' but to all the tribes of the earth, the sign of Christ's return will only be given when they see Him coming on the clouds of Heaven in power and great glory, as they beat themselves in grief.


Harry

 

Yeah, so you do agree with me and Scripture that the mortal wound affected the whole beast and not just the one head; and besides, have you ever seen a beast with six dead heads dangling off it? lol


Harry

 

[3 And he carried me away in the power of the spirit into a wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns.7 So the angel said to me: “Why is it that you were amazed? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the wild beast that is carrying her and that has the seven heads and the ten horns: 8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth—those whose names have not been written in the scroll of life from the founding of the world—will be amazed when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present.9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.12 “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast. 13 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”] cf. [19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

[19 Then he said: “Here I am causing you to know what will happen in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end.]

[17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God.]

[10 ... the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.]

[18 Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour.]

[4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.]

[5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]

[6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath,]

[31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature.
“And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation. 32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively. 33 And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many. And they will be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days. 36 “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place.37 He will show no regard for the God of his fathers; nor will he show regard for the desire of women or for any other god, but he will magnify himself over everyone.]

 

So this is what you said in reply to, "Only one head had the death stroke and healed,"

Whereupon I said:

Then you said:

Whereupon I said:

And then you disagree with my conclusion, saying:

which then, with all the above as context, can only mean that you don't agree that the whole beast needed healing due to the sword stoke on one of its heads, which means you disagree with Scripture, which says precisely that, to wit: ' . . . the first wild beast, whose death stroke got healed.' Re 13:12

Further, do you think that dead heads are capable of receiving a sword stroke as if to death?

Can putative dead heads on a beast be used as qualifiers for 'one of its heads' that got slaughtered as if to death?'


Harry

 

Yes, and they speak for themselves, I didn't have to say anything.

 

Nope again. The sun, moon, star event is the 'sign' that shows Jesus is coming. It's all in how you read Matthew's wording and comparing to others. I already talked about this in #165.

It should be read as 'then at that time, with the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven'

5119. tote
Definition: then, at that time

[29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 'then at that time, with the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven' all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.]

[24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.]

[25 “Also, there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation. 26 People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.”]

[30 And I will give wonders (4159) in the heavens and on the earth, Blood and fire and columns of smoke.31 The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood Before the coming of the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah.]

4159. mopheth
Definition: a wonder, sign, portent

[12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, 13 and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”]

 

Umm, I don't know if you know this, but there really isn't a real beast with 7 heads. SHHH, don't tell anyone that thinks there is.

Here is again what I said:

[The beast has one body 7 different heads. If all heads were active at the same time, the one beast body would go in all different directions, unless all were in agreement working together all the time. Instead, what you have is the 1st head active and the rest dormant. Then when the 2nd becomes active, 3-7 are still dormant but the first is dead and so on down the line. Now when it gets to the 7th because it is the last active head, the first six being dead, then if something happens to that 7th head the whole beast dies. This is why when this head gets the fatal wound it is as the whole beast is dead because there are no others heads at that point to control the body. So when this head gets healed it is as though the whole beast did because it as a whole is active again.]

I said it is the whole beast, it being the 7th at this point. But I made clear that it took place on one head, the 7th, because there are some that think the beast is one beast with the 7 heads all active and in power at the same time.

 

Didn't you just say:

LOL

Your view creates a problem in that, if we agree that the beast of Re 13 and the one of Re 17 are the same entity, where both have 7 heads and 10 horns - despite slight differences in appearance - and you say that only the last head is active and in power, and as one of the 7 it could only have 2 horns at most, but the beast is said to have 10 horns upon 7 heads, meaning, your 7th head would have to have 10 horns, while the previous 6 would have to had none, which seems like an even stranger looking beast than otherwise, and is therefore not likely.


Harry