I just feel like the following scriptures parallel each other so well that we can't ignore that they are talking about the same beast being slaughtered and then healed(coming out of abyss) as the 8th king.

(Re 13:3, 8) “. . .And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. . .And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world.”

(Re 17:8) “. . .The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.”

(Re 17:11) “. . .And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth [king], but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.”

 

So you don't think those scriptures are identical moments in chronology? I don't know Joshua, they seem very similar in nature regarding a beast(that was), a head that is slaughtered(was not), and the head healed(coming out of abyss), then the whole world wonders admiringly of which none are written into the book of life. When it comes out of the abyss it is also an 8th king and goes off into destruction.

I'm kinda thinking they are talking about the same moment in chronology, they are just too similar. Sorry.

I like using the color coding, I saw Alvy use it and it helps identify the similarities in the verses, hope it ok.

 

I could tell/show you (and I have already) but what good would it do? You are going to keep replying with your own reasoning and continue to avoid reasoning on the Scriptures I cite.

If you really are curious, I will show/tell you what you ask, but you are going to have to respond to me like you are trying to understand even if you don't agree. You can't respond like as soon as I say/show/ask something you immediate show your thinking in response.

 

That is your main problem. You don't want to be shown by Scriptures, you want personal answers/thinking. And that is the way you respond and state your own understandings.

I don't and will not say the things I do without using the Scriptures.

[11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.]

[4 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.]

Yes, so regardless of if one thinks the death-stoke is the same as the abyssing or if one thinks they happen at two different times, the fact is the beast that is healed and that comes out of the sea, originally came out of the sea.

Out of the sea>>>>>>death stoke>>>healed>>>>>in abyss>>>out of abyss>>>>>
Out of the sea>>>>>death stroke/in abyss>>>>>>healed/out of abyss>>>>>

Yes, that is correct.

John saw the beast when it was, and the woman was riding, and the beast had not gone into the abyss yet.

The beast was/is currently. It was/is starting from Egypt (1st king) down to this day (7th king). And the woman has being riding it (with each king) all along and still is today.

When John saw it, it 'was' at that time, and at that time happen to be during the 6th king. That fact that the first 5 had already fallen does not mean that the beast 'was not' at the time John saw it. It still 'was' like it is today with it being the 7th king, even though the 6th king has fallen since John's time.

Beast was/is during - 1st king>>2nd>>3rd>>>4th>>>5th>>>6th>>>7th>>>
John sees it - >>>>>>1- 5 kings had fallen>>>6th one is>>>7th yet to come>>>
7th king came>>>>>>1-6 had fallen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>7th one here>>>>>
Beast is not>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>7th king goes into abyss
Beast comes out of the abyss>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>8th king
Beast goes off into destruction>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>8th king>>Jesus comes- Armageddon


[9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.]

3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.

[20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

 

Yeah, you are quoting the beast in Da 7:7, but I was referring to the one in Re 17:9-12; so how are the 10 horns distributed if 6 heads were already history, but only the 7th head is alive in the end times, and therefore has to have all 10 horns on his head, implying that the 6 previous heads were all without horns, whereas in history there would have been 3 dual horn heads and 4 single horn powers; I am not saying that this is an impossible meaning, but wonder if you have a better explanation for it?


Harry

 

If I may say so, Joshua does have a point here, in that you often forget, or simply omit, to tell how you interpret a particular text you are quoting - and why you interpret it that way - leaving the reader having to guess this vital bit of information, that to your mind is self-explanatory.

No offence intended.


Harry

 

I think the 666 comes after the 8th king, that seems pretty clear in the bible.

 

Thats ok. We can agree to disagree

 

That is not so. First thing to note is to keep in mind when you hear people say we all have the same Bible/read the same Scriptures. Now keep in mind that it is not up to our own interpretations of the Scriptures that matter, what matters is letting the Bible/Scriptures interpret themselves.

When it comes to you saying that I don't share my thinking/reasoning on what/why Scriptures I cite, just look back at my last post #88.

I using my own words talked about what John saw:

John saw the beast when it was, and the woman was riding, and the beast had not gone into the abyss yet.

The beast was/is currently. It was/is starting from Egypt (1st king) down to this day (7th king). And the woman has being riding it (with each king) all along and still is today.

When John saw it, it 'was' at that time, and at that time happen to be during the 6th king. That fact that the first 5 had already fallen does not mean that the beast 'was not' at the time John saw it. It still 'was' like it is today with it being the 7th king, even though the 6th king has fallen since John's time.

I made a chart:

Beast was/is during - 1st king>>2nd>>3rd>>>4th>>>5th>>>6th>>>7th>>>
John sees it - >>>>>>1- 5 kings had fallen>>>6th one is>>>7th yet to come>>>
7th king came>>>>>>1-6 had fallen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>7th one here>>>>>
Beast is not>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>7th king goes into abyss
Beast comes out of the abyss>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>8th king
Beast goes off into destruction>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>8th king>>Jesus comes- Armageddon

And then I cited Scriptures that support what I said/showed:

[9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.][8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth—those whose names have not been written in the scroll of life from the founding of the world—will be amazed when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present.]

[3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 4 And they worshipped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?” 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.]

[20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

I also explained in my own words that because it was said that the beast in ch 13 and ch 17 are the same beast, that that being the case and since the beast in ch 13 shows the beast coming out of the sea, I made the point that the beast coming out of the abyss still originally came out of the sea. It said to be coming out of the abyss isn't because that is where it came from, it comes out of there having gone into there at some point after already being here from when it came out of the sea.

I showed this stating that no matter what view one had as to the timing of the said events, that the beast still comes out of the sea as its starting point:

Out of the sea>>>>>>death stoke>>>healed>>>>>in abyss>>>out of abyss>>>>>
Out of the sea>>>>>death stroke/in abyss>>>>>>healed/out of abyss>>>>>

If you would like to go back to ANY post I made, where you feel I did not explain my thinking/reasoning with the Scriptures I cited, I would be more than willing to explain my thinking/reasoning there, including here in this post.

 

Yeah, you often do a good job at explaining your views, just not all the time; I guess we all misunderstand at times.

I think we all agree that Re 17:8 is spoken from the perspective of some point in time during the 'Lord's day,' meaning in our end times, at which point: 'The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss.'

The question then is, assuming that verses 9 to 11 continue speaking about the same beast: from what time perspective are we to understand that, of the seven heads 'five had fallen, one is, and the other had not yet arrived?'

It has got to be either the same time perspective of being in the vision sometime during the 'Lord's day,' as in verse 8, or, exiting the vision, from the perspective of how things were in 98 CE, when the angel gave John the vision; and if the latter perspective, why? and what causes this unexpected switch in time reference?

[it's getting late here; more tomorrow]

Harry

 

In replying about this I will also address what you said about the 10 horns on one head and why I cited Daniel, etc.

Picture an art painting on a wall in a museum. It is a painting of the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns and a woman on top riding it. This physical painting does not change from the time it was painted. No matter how many years/centuries it hangs on the wall it always looks the same to all that that see it through all the years.

Now an angel comes next to someone looking at that painting and tells them that there is meaning behind what they are looking at. The meaning behind it represents what really is going to happen in real life. They tell this person to right down what they tell them.

Now you have a painting on the wall and writings on details about the meaning of that painting that represents what is to take place in real life. These writings do not change, and the painting does change to reflect the writings as they take place in real life.

The time preceptive of what is to really happen in real life is going to take place exactly like it is supposed to. The painting will not change though to reflect those events. So what is written you have to see/look for in real life and not in the painting.

If this angel now came and talked to two more people that were looking at that painting but went to them at two different times years apart, the painting would still be the same in appearance and the writings/meaning would still represent the same as it always did, but based on what had occurred in real life at the time each person was being talked to by the angel would change the perspective in time that they are seeing the painting.

The painting shows the beast with 7 heads 10 horns and woman on top riding it. The writings/what was told show the abyssing the coming out, the 8th king, the 5 fallen. The painting will never reflect those events. 5 heads won't hang down in the painting, horns on those heads don't move over to the next heads, etc.

At the time John was shown this painting, he saw it as the painting was originally painted but depending on what took place and had not taken place in real life based on the writings, his perspective would be different than someone years after him and years before him looking at the same painting with the same writings in hand.

He seen the painting of 'the beast with 7 heads 10 horns and woman on top riding it' when the 6th head/king was ruling in real life, and it is said that the 7th king had not come yet, even though keep in mind that the 7th head is on the painting when he sees it.

This also shows that since the 6th head/king was ruling then and the 7th king still had not come even though the head was on the painting, it means that even though heads 1-5 were on the painting when he saw it, in real life by that time 1-5 kings had fallen already by his time.

So now just because the 5 kings had fallen by that time it did not change how the painting looked, the heads were still there with horns on them. Remember the painting is what it is and does not change but the writings are what you look for to happen in real life based on what is said to be what the painting represents.

So, when John saw the painting, for him real life based on the writings was that the beast was the 6th king, and the woman was riding him just as she did with kings 1-5. Remember she is said to have relations with all the kings. What had not happened in John's life is the 7th king represented by a head on the beast that he saw, he did not come yet and the beast also did not go into the abyss yet and become the 8th king.

In our time we see the same painting as it always has been, there is still a beast with 7 heads 10 horns and a woman riding him. But in our perspective based on the writings, the 6th king has fallen like kings 1-5 and the beast is the 7th king now and the woman is riding him. We are still waiting for the beast to go into the abyss and come out as the 8th king and then go off into destruction. Also, the 10 horns they are still there in the painting we see now. The heads didn't disappear in the painting just because in real life kings 1-6 fell. The 10 horns don't all have to be on the 7th head as you tried to reason that what I was saying would mean.

When I cited the beast in Daniel, I did so just to joke that there is a beast mentioned to not only have 10 horns on one head but 11 horns.

That was in response to what you said:

[Yeah, so you do agree with me and Scripture that the mortal wound affected the whole beast and not just the one head; and besides, have you ever seen a beast with six dead heads dangling off it? lol]

[Your view creates a problem in that, if we agree that the beast of Re 13 and the one of Re 17 are the same entity, where both have 7 heads and 10 horns - despite slight differences in appearance - and you say that only the last head is active and in power, and as one of the 7 it could only have 2 horns at most, but the beast is said to have 10 horns upon 7 heads, meaning, your 7th head would have to have 10 horns, while the previous 6 would have to had none, which seems like an even stranger looking beast than otherwise, and is therefore not likely.]

This is why I replied:

[No stranger than this one...

7 “After this I kept watching in the visions of the night, and I saw a fourth beast, fearsome and terrifying and unusually strong, and it had large iron teeth. It was devouring and crushing, and what was left it trampled down with its feet. It was different from all the other beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns.8 While I considered the horns, look! another horn, a small one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were plucked up from before it. And look! there were eyes like human eyes in this horn, and there was a mouth speaking arrogantly.]

 

Alvy

• John saw the beast - in his present time when the beast was the 6th king
• The beast was - present time, it has been present since it was 1st king and will be until it is not/when goes into abyss
• The beast is not - in the future when it goes into the abyss
• The beast abyssed - this is the time when it is not
• The 6th is - Past to us now, 6th king was present in John's Day
• The 7th comes -Future from John's day, 7th king present to us now
• Five fallen -Past, these fell before John's time
• From abyss -Future, it has to first go into the abyss, then it comes out as the 8th king, which means it goes in when it is the 7th king.

 

No, the angel does not say that, like you claim.

There are two take aways from what the angel says:

[9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.]

The angel is talking to John telling him about what he was just shown, which is a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns and a woman sitting on top. The angel explains to John about the 7 kings, saying 5 had fallen (past) and one is (6th) (present, in John's time.) and one other (7th) was yet to arrive (future).

That was the first take away talking about the 7 heads/kings.

Next, he is talking about the beast as a whole. How do we know that? Because there is no 8th head and yet he says the beast is also an 8th king. (Remember just like the image in Daniel only represents kings 3-7, we agreed that the image as a whole is the 8th king.)

So, in talking about the beast as a whole in saying 'is not' it is referring to when the beast goes into the abyss. It has nothing to do with the angel telling John about the 6th king the 'one is' at John's time.

Let's assume that you are right. Answer the following:

If you think the beast 'is not'(because it goes into the abyss at that time) when the 6th king 'is', then do you think the 6th king comes out of the abyss still being the 6th king? Or is it the 7th king? (Note that at the time you have the beast going into the abyss, when the 6th is, the 7th hadn't even arrived at that point to go into the abyss then.) When does the beast became the 8th king in your view?


And if you want to keep showing my view, show it accurately:

Alvy

• John saw the beast - Present at the time it was the 6th king
• The beast was - Present now from the 1st king that already fell (past) until the 7th goes into the abyss, in future.
• The beast is not - Future
• The beast abyssed - Future
• The 6th is - Past
• The 7th comes -Present
• Five fallen -Past
• From abyss -Future