I say the death-stroke is it going into the abyss and the healing is it coming out. The time the people are looking with admiration/amazement is the same time frame and happens after it comes out of the abyss/gets healed to be the 8th king. These people are the ones that take the MOTB, etc.
The statue and beasts of Dan repeat each time Jerusalem is destroyed. The five that fall is the king of the south when the king of the north wins. There are other places in Rev that speak of other time periods. Rev 12, for example, covers all of human history. The point is the angel that is speaking in Rev 17 is speaking in present tense in that moment. All we are focusing on is when the angel says the beast is not, does that mean the 6th is alive at the same moment in time as the angel says it is? The context of the angel's words, specifically in Rev 17, is what we are discussing. The angel's words in that specific chapter do not pertain to the rest of Rev. Joshua
You do know that Rev covers other time periods other than the time of the end, right? (Rev 12 for example) Just because the angel's specific words in Rev 17 are in the present tense has nothing to do with other places in Rev speaking of other time periods. What are you smiling about? Joshua
OK then, so can you first pick a combination of a) or b) for both 1) and 2) below: 1) perspective of time from which the content of verse 8 is uttered: a) 98 CE; b) now 2) perspective of time from which the content of verse 10 is uttered: a) 98 CE; b) now so either: 1a & 2a 1b & 2b 1b & 2a 1a & 2b which of the 4 possible combinations above represent your interpretation?
[24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”] So, this woman has a long history? [ “Come, I will show you the judgment on the great prostitute who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality,] Do you think that the kings in your present tense placing of Rev 17 are the only ones that committed sexual immorality with her?
That is a good point - thinking through all the implications of a certain interpretation to try and ensure that they do not conflict with other related prophecies that bear on the subject. But then, who spilled the blood of God's prophets and holy ones, if not His chosen people themselves, making them Babylon the Great? Harry
If you would have studied what I've said all along you'd know already I believe the woman began nearly 5000 years ago at the Tower of Babel. The woman has been reborn over and over. You know, that whole deathstroke that's healed thing... So yea, in her is found the blood of those slaughtered on the earth. Joshua
I don't know what you are asking is saying now. 2024? [Well, on seeing her I was greatly amazed. 7 So the angel said to me: “Why is it that you were amazed? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the wild beast that is carrying her and that has the seven heads and the ten horns: 8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth—those whose names have not been written in the scroll of life from the founding of the world—will be amazed when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present. 9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction] Bold there is the painting I talked about. This is what John saw/was shown by the angel in 98c.e. Red is the angel giving meaning to John about what he saw/was shown. This is also 98c.e. So, it was shown/uttered by the angel to John in 98c.e. but because John wrote it down, we have it today/now and uttering it. But when it comes to applying the application to real life of what was said, then the way it applied when the angel told John in 98c.e. is the 5 kings that had fallen were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece. And the 'one is' was Rome. Then there was one other still to come, future from John's time. That applied to the heads. Now in talking about the beast and how it applied in 98c.e., it 'was' (present) in the role of 6th king. The time that it 'is not'/due to being in the abyss was still future from John's time. How it applies now in our time: 6 kings have fallen Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. The one other to come has come (7th) is here now. That applied to the heads. Now in talking about the beast, it is still 'present' now but in the role of 7th king. The time that it 'is not'/due to being in the abyss is still future for us. When that time comes and the beast 'is not' because it is in the abyss due to the death stroke, it will then be healed and come out of the abyss and be present again but in the role of the 8th and final king that Jesus will end up destroying when he comes.
I know that you say she goes back 5000 years, and I didn't ask you if blood was found in her, I asked:
The interpretation you hold is held by millions of Christians, if not a billion. It takes the angels words out of context, and claims two different timings for the word "is." "Is" for the 6th king is 98 CE and "is not" for the best is 2000 years later. Let alone the horns being alive and well during the whole time. If one were to read the text without interpreting anything one would read the 6th is and the beast is not at the same moment in time. If you go outside the timeframe of the vision, it's open season. If I choose for myself when these events occur I could say they occur thousands of years ago, or thousands of years from now; whenever I wish. If I allow the angel to speak for himself, the 6th is alive the same moment the beast is not. I used to think like you until I decided to get rid of the paradoxes. You keep explaining your view like it's new to us and we can't understand it. Literally everyone believes it, and I've had this conversation with people for decades. Why not try and prove the angel is speaking of two different time periods thousands of years apart with the single word, "is." Because to me that word means "now, present tense." If the angel meant the 6th was Rome in John's day, then the beast is not at that same moment. If the 6th is alive at the time of the end then the beast is not at the time of the end. No matter when the 6th "is," the beast "is not" at the same moment. You can dance around that all day long; but for as long as you live this conversation is going to eat at you. I know... Joshua
Well if she goes back 5000 years, I'd say she's been involved with nations ever since. But that is meaningless to the text; it's obviously talking about the apostasy of 666 set up in Rev 13. Therefore it is specifically focusing on the nations at that time, present tense, that commit the fornication of the image of the beast. The text doesn't say the nations were or were not the "only ones." What's your point? Besides, nations are comprised of people. Joshua
OK, so you are 1b & 2a on my table of options, meaning, in verse 8 John saw the beast as if he were transported to our day, but then in verse 10, that same beast is then explained to him how it was in 98 CE, basically snatching him out of the vision and dislocating the context - so why would the angel do that, without telling either John or us that this is what he did? Like I said, a lot of people see it like you do, and it might be correct, it just seems baffling to me. On a different point of interest to me: the woman committing [spiritual] fornication seems to be a religious entity, but when the beast she rides comes up out of the abyss, those who dwell on the earth are adoring the beast, not the richly adorned sorceress that made them drunk with the wine of her [spiritual] fornication, which they previously seemed of have worshiped - how come? Is the beast now riding her? It doesn't say so, but that is what it seems like, according to all the details about the beast and the woman - just fishing for other views here.
That is my take on it as well. The WT teaches that the beast in chapter 17 is the image, but to me those scritures are obviously talking about the same beast that receives a death stroke and comes out of the abyss. I'm sorry but I don't see a problem with the angel elaborating on things to John in past, present, and future tense. He existed in 98ce, so when the angel describes that five have fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet arrived, he is explaining past, present, and future of the beast, ending the description in the Lords day when the 8th king springs from the seven and goes off into destruction. In my opinion, the first set of verses where the angel tells the mystery of the beast is specifically about the end times(verses 3-8), then goes on to elaborate more about the beast itself and the role it has played throughout history. Because the angel was expanding on the details of the beast, and the history which it represents of the 7 heads/kings/nations. If we look at it from your perspective the angel should have said 'all seven have fallen' in vers 9-11. He already had done that in the first description (verse 3-8), but then he gives us more details(verses 9-11) to help us identify who the 7 heads are.
I think the beast itself originates from the sea, when the first head Egypts comes to power. The sea(waters)mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues (Rev 17:15) The beast originates from the sea, but when the seventh head receives the death stroke it rises from the abyss. One is describing the origin of the beast, the other is describing the state of it's being when it is dead. To rise from the abyss is to rise from nonexistence, or from a place of absolute restraint resulting from the death stroke. The scriptures seem pretty clear the mark of the beast comes after the death stroke is healed. (Re 13:11-14) “. . .And I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking as a dragon. 12 And it exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and those who dwell in it worship the first wild beast, whose death-stroke got healed. ...while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived.” The image does not come to exist until the wild beast that had the sword stroke is revived. Then the world will be told to worship the image by being forced, compelled, to take the mark of the beast or die. So to answer your question, the 666 comes after the wild beast rises from the abyss, or state of non existence. (Re 13:15-18) “. . so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who would not in any way worship the image of the wild beast. 16 And it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead, 17 and that nobody might be able to buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name. 18 Here is where wisdom comes in: Let the one that has intelligence calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is a man’s number; and its number is six hundred and sixty-six.”
Yes, I understand what you are saying; it is just that with the historical interpretation perspective of empires - the likes of Egypt, Greece and Rome - how will today's people, like gen-z or millennials, react when the present system collapses, with total chaos and nothing functioning, and then, lets say, 6 month later comes back to life again, will they worship the NWO system because they associate it with how resilient and glorious the Roman empire was in its heyday, or because their i-phones and door-dash is up and running again?
Let's do the same with Daniel and the image. Neb having his dream seeing image = John seeing/being shown beast Daniel telling Neb about his dream/what he saw = angel telling John about what he saw [29 “As for you, O king, on your bed your thoughts turned to what is to take place in the future, 31 “You, O king, were watching, and you saw an immense image. That image, which was huge and extremely bright, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was terrifying. 32 The head of that image was of fine gold, its chest and its arms were of silver, its abdomen and its thighs were of copper, 33 its legs were of iron, and its feet were partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 You looked on until a stone was cut out, not by hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and of clay and crushed them. 35 At that time the iron, the clay, the copper, the silver, and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a large mountain, and it filled the whole earth. 36 “This is the dream, and we will now tell the king its interpretation. 37 You, O king—the king of kings to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the might, the strength, and the glory, 38 and into whose hand he has given men wherever they may dwell, as well as the beasts of the field and the birds of the heavens, and whom he has made ruler over all of them—you yourself are the head of gold. 39 “But after you another kingdom will rise, inferior to you; then another kingdom, a third one, of copper, that will rule over the whole earth. 40 “As for the fourth kingdom, it will be strong like iron. For just as iron crushes and pulverizes everything else, yes, like iron that shatters, it will crush and shatter all of these. 41 “And just as you saw the feet and the toes to be partly of clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom will be divided, but some of the hardness of iron will be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with soft clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom will be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people; but they will not stick together, one to the other, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever, 45 just as you saw that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the copper, the clay, the silver, and the gold. The Grand God has made known to the king what will happen in the future. The dream is true, and its interpretation is trustworthy.”] In Daniel's time, King Neb is said to be the head (Babylon) present at that time. Then more kings are said to come (future), chest/arms, abdomen/ thighs, legs, feet. Then a stone is said to come and strike the image (future). John reading this in 98c.e., would view it at that time as legs king (Rome) present and feet king still to come (future). And stone coming and striking the image, still future. Us now in reading it in 2024, view it as feet king here present and stone coming to strike the image still future. [41 “And just as you saw the feet and the toes to be partly of clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom will be divided, but some of the hardness of iron will be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with soft clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom will be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people; but they will not stick together, one to the other, just as iron does not mix with clay.] [United Nations: Guterres warns ‘we are on the edge of an abyss’ The UN’s chief painted a grim picture of a divided and polarized world and urged solidarity among nations.…The world has never been more threatened or more divided, United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres told nations of the world on Tuesday as he kicked off the 76th General Assembly session, urging all 193 member states to “wake up” and realize that solidarity is the only way out of disaster.] Beast head/kings Egypt 1 Assyria 2 Babylon 3 Medo-Persia 4 Greece 5 Rome 6 Present 7th>>>into abyss/death stroke Healed/out of the abyss 8th king Jesus comes throws into fiery lake [20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.] Image body part kings head Babylon 3 chest/arms Medo-Persia 4 abdomen/ thighs Greece 5 legs Rome 6 feet present 7th>>> 'we are on the edge of an abyss’ - will go in solidarity out of the abyss whole image 8th king Stone comes strikes the image [34 You looked on until a stone was cut out, not by hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and of clay and crushed them. 35 At that time the iron, the clay, the copper, the silver, and the gold were, all together, crushed and became like the chaff from the summer threshing floor, and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a large mountain, and it filled the whole earth.]
You are not answering the question. If John understood the 6th as Rome, he would have understood the beast as "is not." The 6th "is," and the beast "is not." Prove they are different times other than present at the same moment. Just because you say so isn't good enough. We are aware of the concept of things happening in different times, you don't need to keep explaining it. You need to prove that's what the angel means. Because reading it as a layman "is" means "is." Reading it like I do is the common sense reading. You must show in Rev 17 both are two time frames separated by 2000 years and not the same moment. Also, how are all of the horns alive before, during, and after the abyssing? Your view interprets, my view takes the angels words literally. Which puts the vision in the time of the end where it belongs. So God skips over all of the world powers since Rome. Got it... All of the other beasts of Dan 7 give their power over when the fourth beast is destroyed (present), and the stone crushes all of the elements of the statue individually at the same moment (present). Yet, in your opinion, none of the past elements or beasts are present in the end. Hmmm All seven heads and ten horns are in the Lord's day, just as the angel says. Joshua
Have you considered how the elements, beasts, and horns of Daniel can all be alive at the time of the end if they no longer exist? "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces," Dan 2:35 "As I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed ---- As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time." Dan 7:11,12 "And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings --- These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast." Rev 17:12,13 The issue is, the angel says the 6th is, and the wild beast is not. If one tries to say these are not the same moment in time, one would have to prove that. The natural reading is both occur at the same moment. Joshua
Who said he skipped over? I put 'present' as in our 'present' time being in the time of the 7th king, which is after Rome 6th king. Did you need for me to put Anglo-America? Would you say that she was involved with Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome? Do you agree with the following, that so far it has been about 2,630 years since Neb's dream? head Babylon - 603 B.C.E. when Neb had his dream (Dan 2:1) chest/arms Medo-Persia abdomen/ thighs Greece legs Rome feet Anglo-America (2024c.e.) Jesus (stone) strikes the image on the feet when he comes - Armageddon
The British Empire was the largest world power ever before the US even arrived. The sun never set on it. The Ottoman Turks ruled the known world. The Mongolian Empire ruled all of the known world. The Holy Roman Empire ruled the world. The Byzantine Empire ruled the world. The Muzlum Arrab Empire ruled the world. Alvy, there have been world powers in between Rome and so-called Anglo-America. And by the who, what, and way, Britain and the US are two separate countries, no matter how much you want to make them one. I guess God skipped over all of those world powers, huh? And: Babel Gutia-Elam Byzantine The Holy Roman Empire The Persians The Franks The British Empire The Germans The French The Italians The Russians The Mexicans The Chinese The Spanish The Africans The Australians The US Etc.... Etc.... Your point? Nope, I do not agree... Unless you missed history class, there were major world powers before the US and Britain (which are two separate countries, btw). You are missing this simple fact that I keep trying to tell you, and you are not listening. The statue repeats itself; that's how all of the beasts, elements, and horns are present in the end. Joshua