I have no idea what your point is, and to be quite honest, I'm losing interest. Only the speaker can define their meaning. I told you what I meant by what I said. Are you telling me you know better what my words meant than I do? Are you calling me a liar? Haven't we had this conversation?
If we were to take the beast in Re 17 to 'not be' in 100 AD or today, but the 6th head of it to be present in power at that time, then, perhaps, the beast could also have 'not been' during the previous 5 beasts, but predates them all as the Tower of Babel beast Empire, about which it said in Ge 11:6, that, 'now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them,' the way it will be again when the wild beast comes out of the abyss, after receiving the sword stroke in our day, just like the Tower of Babel beast Empire received its sword stroke with the confusion of the languages. Just a thought. Harry
Yes, that is how WT sees Re 13; but to me it seems more like this is a new development in the 'Lord's day' still to come, where Satan concentrates all his power and authority in one entity [v 2b], which is then given 'authority over every nation [v 7],' not independent sovereign nations states like we have today individually under Satan's power. Harry
Do you think the little horn uproots the three kings at the great tribulation? I was reading a thread where somebody said that the three kings are not rooted up simultaneously but are rooted up over a period of time, one at a time. What are your thoughts?
The deathstoke to Babel is the deathstroke to the head in Rev 13. The watchers come down in both Gen 11 and Dan 4 and scatter the people and the fruit. In both instances, the people spoke boastfully, with the heaven-high tree and heaven-high tower. The healed condition of the lion in Dan 7 is that of Nebbi from Dan 4. Nebbi grew eagle feathers, which were plucked out in Chapter 4. Nebbi was given the mind of a beast and went on all fours, while the lion was given the mind of a man and stood up on two legs. Babylon the Great is the healed deathstroke from Babel. She is the ideology invented in Shinar hence why she will go back. "He said to me, “To the land of Shinar, to build a house for it. And when this is prepared, they will set the basket down there on its base.” Zech 5:11 All elements of the statue and all four beasts must be present when the beast goes into the abyss, and when God's kingdom arrives. "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces," Dan 2:35 "As I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed ---- As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time." Dan 7:11,12 "And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings --- These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast." Rev 17:12,13 This is only possible if there are modern versions of each beast. The statue keeps repeating. It's the only answer that removes all paradoxes. I'm not saying this chart is accurate, but it is a working draft:
This Scripture is also at variance with Re 13, where Satan gives his power, throne and great authority over every nation to the beast, but here it is the 10 kings who give their power and authority to the beast; hence, the nations of the 10 kings - as part of 'every nation' - have got no power to give to the beast after it comes out of the abyss, because Satan already gave it to the beast. There are just too many variables everywhere; back to the drawing board for me, lol. Harry
Verse 7 is a time change. It discusses the conquering of the saints when it kills the two witnesses at the end of the 42 months. Before that it acted during the 42 months. There are 1290 days between the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing placed. So 30 days after the 42 months end the wild beast sits in the holy place and the whole world worships it in verse 8. The beast goes into the abyss between 6 and 7. The other beats give their power over to the 8th king a time and a season before God's kingdom. That's 450 days before. Joshua
You said: [I don't say this is when the end time will come;] And then I showed you a video of you saying that very same thing. ____________________________ You told me: That was post #159 you said that. But I showed you that going back to post #42 I did answer that. So that being the case, it is not true that I ignored your questions and that I still have not answered them. And your point about you not answering me until I answer you is null and void because I had already answered you when you said that to me, so therefore no reason for you to not answer me. You are the one that said this to me: @Alvy I'm still curious about the answer to this question: Why do you think you're right? I'm not trying to be facetious. I'm genuinely curious about why you believe you are correct about the chorology. What is the main reason? Joshua ____________ To which I replied: I could tell/show you (and I have already) but what good would it do? You are going to keep replying with your own reasoning and continue to avoid reasoning on the Scriptures I cite. If you really are curious, I will show/tell you what you ask, but you are going to have to respond to me like you are trying to understand even if you don't agree. You can't respond like as soon as I say/show/ask something you immediate show your thinking in response. _____________________________ You also said: The 6th "is," and the beast "is not." Prove they are different times other than present at the same moment. Just because you say so isn't good enough. We are aware of the concept of things happening in different times, you don't need to keep explaining it. You need to prove that's what the angel means. Because reading it as a layman "is" means "is." Reading it like I do is the common sense reading. You must show in Rev 17 both are two time frames separated by 2000 years and not the same moment. __________________________ So, if you want to know about my chorology and want me to prove what the angels means, I laid out that you would have to respond like you are trying to understand me and asked you not to respond in the way of your thinking. This would mean that you answer for me what I ask so that I could gather what I needed to know from you, so I could put down in order what you think but also put Scriptures along with it, which is something that I told you I would do because I don't write/say things without supplying Scriptures along with. But what do you do...you continue to reply to me with your thinking or you avoid answering what I asked, saying; 'what does it matter' or giving me dates/years that I did not ask about. So then when I call you out on that, you ramble off a bunch of nonsense on how I can't tell another person how to respond and that you will do so however you want to. Does that sound like someone that is replying like they are trying to understand like I asked? I specifically said that I need you to respond a certain way in order for me to show you what you asked of me and what you want me to prove. Hence, if you want me to prove a 2,000-year period, then I am asking about Neb's year of his dream to the time of the stone crushing the image. But also, I said back then what you will end up doing which indeed you have... I said: [I could tell/show you (and I have already) but what good would it do? You are going to keep replying with your own reasoning and continue to avoid reasoning on the Scriptures I cite.] But hey, this is nothing new to me. RK does the same thing when I ask him questions that he knows will lead to showing that he is wrong about the things he says. He avoids answering me, deletes what I say, and bans me because he cannot defend his beliefs when faced with what I ask. I asked him: [So, what do you think, are these verses pertaining to the start of the 42 months or after them: 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with usat the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.] Here Instead of just answering me, his reply was: [You pretend like you know everything and make matter-of-fact statements. I am not obligated to explain anything to you.] Here Then another time I was speaking to someone on something they said and RK butted in just to tell me that what I was saying is not right. So, then I turned my attention to him and said that if you don't think what I am saying is right, then will you tell me what is. Here is his reply to that: [I have shown what I believe. If you haven't gotten the sense of it that is on you, not me.] Here And lastly what I have already shown here is my last interaction with him on where I quoted a part of his article that was posted that morning and I asked again about, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 because it was cited there. And what he did at that point was ban me and then edited what I said, deleting out all I said talking about the full context does not fit with when he is saying that event occurs, and I showed that he is making it fit there by only citing selective verses.
You take my words out of context the same way you do the Bible's. I explained in great detail why I said what I did in the video. My words were about explaining what I meant by you not answering questions. It had nothing to do with the video. You think you know better what others say than they do, hence why you are generally lost in a conversation. You didn't even understand my question; you did not answer it. It's one thing to not care and not answer because you don't want to, but if you think you're answering because you already know what I'm asking, that makes you oblivious. You were missing a key detail. You think I'm asking simply how he could see the beast? The angel showed him the beast, Alvy. How dumb is that? I had asked the question several different ways before that because you weren't answering the subject matter of my question, only what you believed my question to be. The one you quoted was just a condensed version. And you only addressed it after I stood my ground about answering your questions. You lost the context of my questions because you were only focusing on your view.... You are blind to your own cockyness... And then you insult me time and again. I asked about how you thought you were right trying to get to your study habits and you claimed I interpret the Bible through personal thoughts and not Scripture? I wanted to know how you process information in order to come to a correct conclusion. You think you know better why other people say what they do than they do, just like you do with the Bible. You don't try to understand others, because you think you know already what they mean. Just like you do with the Bible. You are oblivious. You believe what a billion people believe and what I also believed and taught others for years. YOU DONT THINK I UNDERSTAND IT and how you get there? Again, you are oblivious..... I'm probably more versed in your view than you are. I didn't need all of your scriptures to understand what you believe, I already know what you believe. If you would have just listened, that could have saved us a lot of time. I told you I've read the Bible more times than I can count. If you just tell me how you understand the scripture, I'll know where it is. Just quoting, thinking it supports your view is oblivious, dumb, and tiresome. Because you are wrong.... Wow You are oblivious. I completely understand what you have presented, and I think it's nothing more than a personal interpretation. Not your personal interpretation, you don't have a single unique view. It's the same held by a billion people. It's a billions peoples personal view. You don't tell others what to do. Especially when you don't answer their questions or just write scripture like somehow they support your view, which they don't. You are the one who is wrong and touting an ideology I proved wrong decades ago. Why I even bother having patience with you is a mystery. I don't care about your confidence; I know you are still blind to the truth. Because I'm trying to help you out of your blindness. I don't care if you asked for something, I'm going to say what I wish.... You must control your family.... I feel sorry for them... Nonsense.... That nonsense is why Christ is coming back, He's banishing your form of communication. There will no longer be anyone on earth who acts like you. Satan invented personal truth and the twisting of others' words. I wouldn't think you know everything already if I were you. I already understand what you presented; what you don't seem to grasp is, I think it's nonsense. You are cocky; you think if I reasoned in what you presented, I would understand. I know exactly what you believe and why you do and it's nonsense. It's wrong and so 10-years-ago to me. It's like Prophecy 101 when I'm several grades ahead. My attitude isn't about not understanding; it's about being patient with you and trying to help you see that your view is completely wrong and nonsense. It's first-grade level to me.... You completely ignore the paradoxes in your thinking I present to you. And you haven't presented one single paradox in my thinking. That's because you only focus on yours. You are blind.... Yeah, and apparently, I get his leftovers. He probably banned you because you are oblivious, and blind to everything other than your own views. That sounds like a reasonable answer from RK to me. And there's no love loss between him and I, so I don't have a horse in that race. You don't speak for others, and you don't get to tell them what to say. Maybe you do with your own family, but not with those who are more versed in these subjects than you are. You do not listen to others. You've had plenty of time here to prove my view wrong or right, and you do not even understand it. That's because you are the one who refuses to listen. All you do is expect others to "reason" on what you present, therefore you are blinded to any other view. If you understood what I presented you could tell me why I connect the 1290 days and the 2300 days. You don't listen or try because you think you know everything already, and that's the very definition of blind. You can't prove you are correct without first proving me wrong... That's the very definition of the scientific method. And if you had listened when I asked how you knew you were correct without using Scripture, we could have gotten to how you come to the conclusions you do. But you knew already why I said what I said, didn't you, Alvy? Again, I'm with Rk on that. You are oblivious and think if others would just listen to you, you could open their eyes. While all the time it is you who is blind. You don't try and prove others wrong through their view, you just tout your own beliefs. You keep touting views I learned decades ago, as If I am not understanding them, and all the time I completely understand them. Look back on this forum, there are thousands of discussions on the Wild beasts..... You never once stepped to think that maybe you're wrong, that in fact I do understand what you have said, I just think it's wrong? I understand what you have presented, but you don't understand what I have presented. You tell me who the blind one is. I present dozens of paradoxes in your thinking, and you haven't presented a single one to my understanding. Think about that..... Who is blind, and who is open-minded? You may not get banned here for having a differing view like you will there but if you keep acting like you know what others mean more than they do, like you do the Bible, you'll find out I'm just as inviting as RK. Why don't you try proving others wrong through their view instead of just touting your own. In that way, you will be able to prove your own view correct or incorrect. If you do not prove another view wrong, you will remain in your blindness. Joshua
How foolish are you? This was my whole point in what I was doing. That's why I said this: My whole point to put down in order what you think along with the Scriptures is to show that you are wrong and at the very same time it would show my order it. The fact that the Scriptures would all be there, would show that it is what the Bible says, not me or you. That is what we are told to do: [11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.] And I lost count how many times you just talked about you are right and I am wrong. This coming from a person who said of themself: You said that in response to me saying: [And anytime I or Harry say anything other than what you believe, you show your chart of the end times like you did on post #12 here.] So based on what I said and how you replied, the context is that even though you do believe your chart to be true you admit that you could be wrong. Which that is very humble. But then you turn around and act the fool claiming you are right about all you are saying, and I am wrong. But I don't just go around saying I am right or wrong, I use the Scriptures to be the determining factor. Each can decide for themselves if what I say lines up with the cited Scriptures. I find it very funny that you chose to agree with RK in his statements toward me, because you and him are alike and doing the same thing, to turn and attack the one that is exposing the BS that y'all peddle. You know very well that you place 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 as Jesus' Armageddon coming. So you knowing that, then in my telling RK that that is Jesus' Armageddon coming and not a so-called secret coming of his before the 42 months that he comes to meet only with his chosen, I would think that you would agree with me on that. If you did agree then that would mean you think RK is wrong on what he says. So in that case, who is speaking truth there, me or RK? Who is speaking a lie there, me or RK? If he is the one speaking truth, then he should have no problem speaking/answering about the context of 2 Thess 1:7-10. If he is the one speaking a lie, then it is obvious why he does not want to talk about the context and why he replied as he did. Likewise, you respond to me the same way as he does because moving away from the same old things that you keep repeating over and over about 'one is' and 'is not' and 666 and WW3, and blah, blah, blah, if we moved away from that and addressed all by my approach, you would see that you are wrong and you don't want that, just like RK does not. What is it about you two, is it because y'all wrote a book and put in print or have websites and make videos (All like the WTS does.), that you just feel there is no going back, you just have to keep hammering what you said even if it's it wrong? Will you at least answer this, do you think 'the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels' is Jesus coming at the beginning of the 42 months to appear only to his chosen? If you do not think that, then why do you think RK would not want to answer me about the context of those Scriptures? What motive do you think was behind RK editing/deleting from my post what I said about the context and what I compared from what he said in his article? You know what is sad is that I came back on your site in hopes of it returning to how it used to be before you took it over from RK. There are many on his current site that can't post and say what they think unless it agrees with RK. The ones that comment the most there are the ones that have replaced the GB with RK. They can stay there. But there are many that you don't see always post that would have liked to come here but that is not going to happen with you peddling your beliefs as the only truth, just like RK does. Why can't you just let your site be a place where people can come to gather that believe in Jehoah (that's right no V, not a typo) and Jehoshua but are not set on all the details, where they can talk out and try to work out the Scriptures from different views instead of just yours? You are not going to gain these people now just like you lost most of those that started here in 2013. I have been around since RK old site before you took over and even here when you did take over. Too bad it is not like it used to be with the ones that use to post like Utuna (Luc). What happen to him and Jinn? I see JIG is still here. You are who works at the gas station, right? I loved your heart felt stories. Those on RK site that lurk in the back with each other that don't hang on his every word and that don't LOVE eyes his every post, they would have enjoyed coming here if you were not RK 2.0 with your own set of beliefs. Isn't the most important thing right now to be building each other up? So, what if all don't agree on the order of events. The fact that you admitted that you could be wrong shows that it is important to keep talking about them with different angles and not just being told that what you say is true/correct/right while at the same time admitting that you could be wrong. Talk about a paradox! Anyway, my time here is done in the spirit of, Matthew 7:6
lol... I'm to answer your questions so you can put down where I'm wrong....LOL I have literally explained in detail what I believe, and you wine that I'm saying things you didn't ask...lol Show a single paradox in what I have presented in my own words. I don't need to answer your specific questions to see if they jive with your understanding, so at that point you can then tout how your view differs then mine. You can't prove my view wrong by showing how it differs from yours...lol You must show the paradoxes through my own understanding. This means understanding my view completely, as I do yours. You have no idea what the scientific method is. You must prove my view incorrect based on its own merits, not on its variance with your view...... The reason you can't do this is the same reason you can't understand others. You only speak from your view and contradict others' views through your own. I can disprove your view without even bringing mine up. Like the angel saying the 6th "is," and the beast "is not." I proved you wrong right there, and your answer is, "The angel is speaking of two different time periods." LOL You are blind... ONLY THE ANGEL CAN SPEAK FOR HIMSELF. You think you know better what the angel means than he does. Show one paradox in what I've presented. Prove your cocky words, Alvy. Just more of your assumptions. I wasn't speaking to the subject, Alvy. I don't care about what you were discussing with him, I was speaking to how you approach others, learn and objectify. You can't see past your own nose. I don't have to answer on whether I agree with him or you on the subject. I didn't care to be bothered with your petty argument. lol.... If we would just all listen to you. The one touting the same views as a billion other people. As if I've never heard them...lol You have no unique view, Alvy. Everything you've said on here is from other sources. Maybe it's you.... I don't care about your question... Since you are oblivious, that means I don't care to answer your question; it has nothing to do with the subject matter, which is very important to me. Do you see how I have to explain myself in great detail because you have your own conversations and assume what others are saying? Only the speaker can define their meaning. You think you can interpret others' words. You are wrong and cause strife, like right now and obviously with RK; hence, he dispatched you. For the same reason I won't answer you, Alvy! Because you think you know everything already. I listen and show you paradoxes within your own view, and all you do is tout your own view, and attempt to prove me wrong by telling me what you believe instead. You think it's the other way around, but I am well versed in psychology, and I've seen narcist behavior like yours from the beginning of time. You think you use Scripture to prove others wrong; no you don't. You quote Scripture believing they say exactly what you are saying, not realizing you are reading into them what you wish. Just like the angel and the 6th being alive at the same time the beast is not. I know what the angel means, but you say he doesn't mean what he says. And you do this with others around you. Why can't you let others have their own voice? All you're doing is making yourself look like an idiot. You can't put 2+2 together and make 4. I said I could be wrong, you are oblivious. So, therefore when I say I am right about a certain Scripture, you must put both together............ That's how communication works, and that's how the Bible works. Where you see a conflict of words, that's called the complexity of one's own views. I only get to tell you what I mean. Yet you sit here and determine for me that my words contradict themselves? Who do you think you are? Satan? My problem with you is you think you know what other people are saying, and you are completely wrong. You don't allow others to define themselves; you define their words for them based on how you perceive them. That makes you a supporter of what Satan invented in the Garden of Eden. How many times do I have to say it, before you quit twisting my words? I'm about to kick you off. I said you can have your own views here, you just can't speak for me, like you just did......................... Don't speak for me; I can speak for myself. I never said that; you are interpreting my words through your own little world! You are obviously incapable of empathy. You think I keep this forum to gain people? LOL I don't care if anyone comes here and comments. This forum is my own personal database....lol I have never worked at a gas station...lol You and you're assumptions. You live in your own world. We all have our own set of beliefs, Alvy; that is not the problem. The problem is you determine others' words for them. You define others' intent for them. You claim you know what I'm asking and saying, and then when I try to correct you, you quote a comment from me that you originally took out of context, and I have to correct you again what I meant. STOP INTERPRETING OTHERS' WORDS. No one is you. No one is going to respond like you. No one thinks like you. Just because you would mean one thing by a certain statement, that doesn't mean someone else means the same thing through the same words. It doesn't matter what words are used; all that matters is intent! That is the very reason so many left when Jesus said to drink His blood. He knew there were many people in the crowd like you who wouldn't determine His true meaning but chose for themselves what He meant. Do you not have ears?????? You show an evil attitude, and I am trying to be patient. Only God could define His meaning of not eating from the tree, but Satan and Eve thought they could interpret His words for themselves. The attitude you are showing is evil and will be banished forever. You can't understand me because you only see others' words through your own eyes. You determine others' intent through how you would think by saying what they do. You think you can interpret their words how you see them instead of allowing the speaker to define their words. That's exactly what Satan did. My words there did not contradict themselves; you just failed to understand my intent because you did not ask me to clarify; you just assumed wrongly. Only I can define what I mean by saying I am correct and believe I could be wrong. I WAS THE ONE THAT SAID THEM. Joshua
Maybe you two need to read the forum rules again. Joshua are you the one who wrote these? Forum Rules: It will be the purpose of this forum to be a gathering place for all Christian believers and interested ones. We hold the simple facts of the Bible to be true. And we believe it is through faith in Christ Jesus that brings the free gift of salvation (Eph 2:8). Please keep from any arguing, name-calling, or segregation. We are a singular faith in Christ Jesus, and beyond that, any doctrinal disagreements are simply that, they are personal views. No one on this forum is right 100% of the time about any doctrinal view beyond faith in Christ Jesus. Please keep that in mind. We are not here to change other peoples' minds to think like us; we are together to share ideas and learn from each other. We often learn more about our own understandings from listening to others' views. With that said, may our Lord be here with us and his Spirit guide us in all endeavors. Peace be with you... Honestly I don't know what to say after that, because I came here because it was supposed to be 'a gathering place for all Christian believers and interested one.' The part about sharing ideas and learning from each other reaches out to me, but if it means arguing and turmoil, I don't think I want to be a part of that. I don't feel like the Lord is here with us or guiding us when I read you two. Where's the peace?
The door is open to enter and to leave, we all need to make our own decisions in this life. This forum is my personal home. My name is on it, I pay for it, and it's my responsibility. With that said, I do not keep it in the hopes people will come and gather. If they do fine, if they don't fine. But when someone comes who is determined to teach us all what's what, and twists others words without any empathy, I won't allow them to remain. I own this forum and I will not let someone come in put their feet up and start making demands, acting like they own the place. Would you allow that in your own house? You are welcome to stay and welcome to go. We must all make our own way in this world. Joshua
If this is your home then it is more than just a database I would hope. I understand your concerns Joshua, but you are the one who wrote the following, then you should also be the one to set the example. Not only because you are the owner, and this is your home, but because you want to show the fruitage of the spirit which Jesus Christ puts in us, because that shows you to be a Christian does it not? When it was obvious you two disagreed, wouldn't it have been better to just move on because there was no changing either of your minds. I don't necessarily agree with either one of you, but I don't need to try to prove something that cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt yet because it only causes disharmony, as we have seen here. We all believe in Jehovah and his son Jesus Christ, and we are all about to go through very rough times I feel like. Lets just all try to get along.
I understand where you are coming from, Hannah; and I understand your view. But....... We all have our own roles in God's kingdom. The death angel didn't go down and spank the bottoms of 185,000 Assyrian soldiers, he killed them. God didn't ground the Israelites for making the calf, He killed them. That's our God too... Jehovah and our Lord Christ Jesus are not just all love and flowers. Yes love is their main character, but they are also disciplinarians. Our Lord turned over tables and threw a whip around in the temple. He scolded those around Him asking how long He had to put up with them. Your view of God may differ from mine, and our views of what it means to serve God isn't necessarily going to be the same. I view our God as a whole, not a part. (I'm not saying you don't.) My God is is fierce as well as love. My role in God's kingdom is not your role, and your role is not mine. Joshua
So you are judge already? You get to judge what is right or wrong, because it's your forum? You are disciplining those you judge as wrong when you argue with them, and yet you wrote the following words. Forum Rules: "Please keep from any arguing..,any doctrinal disagreements are simply that, they are personal views. No one on this forum is right 100% of the time about any doctrinal view beyond faith in Christ Jesus. Please keep that in mind." You are going contrary to your 'own' rules you set for the forum. Regardless of your 'role' in Gods kingdom, your 'role' here on the forum is to follow the words 'you yourself' wrote. If you don't follow your own words doesn't that make one a hypocrite?
This is exactly what I got onto Alvy about. I didn't say I was disciplining anyone here. I said God and Jesus were disciplinarians. Did I say I was? You cannot assume others' intent. I did not say nor intend, by my words, what you claim here. This is exactly the problem I'm having with Alvy, Hannah. A hypocrite is "one" who assumes. Joshua
Joshua, I am going to be clear with my intent by my words. You wrote the forum rules, so you more than anybody else have to follow them, because if you don't, you should not expect others to do so either. Forum Rules: "Please keep from any arguing.. any doctrinal disagreements are simply that, they are personal views. No one on this forum is right 100% of the time about any doctrinal view beyond faith in Christ Jesus. Please keep that in mind."