Over the years, millions of people, who once identified as JWs, no longer hold WT to be 'God's exclusive channel of communication,' the sole exception to this state of affairs - at least one with a sizable internet presence - is someone who calls himself 'Jehovah's Watchman,' Robert King of e-watchman, and e-jehovahs-witnesses dot com, who still views them as 'God's spirit directed organization' here on earth, the very 'body of Christ' of those who have been 'once for all enlightened,' but whom God has subjected to 'strong delusions' that they might come to 'believe the lie,' which in 2 Thes 2:9-12 is said of those who are 'judged' by Him as worthy of 'perishing,' constituting RK prophet to the dead, whom he seeks to reform by means of his writings about their errors.

In his latest hit piece on WT's Daily Text he puts forth his view of their role in history, quote: "No doubt the wicked one already had a scheme in place when it became apparent that the upward call was being renewed in connection with the Bible Students."

But where in Scripture do we read about a discontinuation of the heavenly calling?

Unless Jesus was lying when He said that He would be with His anointed disciples, 'all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.' Mat 28:20

RK continues, quote: "During the war years and after, a series of events convinced the Bible Students that Bible prophecy had been fulfilled, although it was not until some years later that the idea that an invisible presence had begun in 1914 was adopted. To this day, Jehovah's Witnesses remain in the grip of Satan's powerful delusion backed up by powerful works, lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception, all for the purpose of convincing Christians that Christ has already begun ruling and Satan has been hurled down from heaven."

So here we have Jehovah founding His exclusive people in our day for the sole purpose of subjecting them to 'powerful delusions backed up by powerful works, lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception,' to believe that Jesus has already come, and God's kingdom is ruling the world since 1914, but He apparently forgot to deceive 2 billion others of Christ's followers - let alone the rest of mankind, that make up the 8 billion people living on earth today - to fall for this 'operation of error,' as if the Bible were written solely for the adepts of Zion's WT Corporation of Pennsylvania, instead of for the whole world that God loved so much as to give His Only Son for.

Millions of people over the past 2000 years have suffered and died for believing and preaching a book that applied only to a 'faithful and discreet slave' composed of 9 'deluded' and 'perishing' souls living at 1 King Drive in Tuxedo, USA - who would have thought?

But that is the cruel joke one Robert King came up with, and wrote a whole book about.

Source:

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/ind...werful-work-and-lying-signs-and-wonders.4192/


Harry

 

But who are 'the faithful?' And faithful to what?

The religious elites of God's first century 'spirit directed organization' - and most of the rank and file worshipers as well - rejected Christ, while tax collectors and harlots entered into the kingdom; so why would it be any different today, where 'many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens, whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside; there is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.' Mat 8:11,12

Any person not part of the great crowd or the holy ones will suffer the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction at the return of Christ, unlike the tens of billions of people who have died before then, who will receive a resurrection, potentially giving them a second chance, which would be unfair to those destroyed at Armageddon, unless they committed the unforgivable sin, which is what worshiping the man of lawlessness amounts to. 2 Thes 1:9; 2:1-12

The chosen ones will become 'objects of hatred by all the nations,' who will 'make tribulation' for them right before Christ's return, when He 'brings vengeance upon those who do not know God, by subjecting them to the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction. Mat 24:9

Satan wants all 8+ billion people on earth in Gehenna, and he can only achieve this end if he can induce them to worship him and his wild beast or its image, because then God will dispatch them with no coming back.

He wants to mislead, entice and pressure everybody to incur God's wrath, not just the holy ones.


Harry

 

Correct. This is why at the end when Jesus comes there are only two groups of people from ALL people of the earth.

One group that rejected Jehovah and followed the 8th king.
One group that worshipped Jehovah and did not follow the 8th king.

This is the whole point of the hour of test/judgement from God, which comes about by means of the 8th king when he receives his authority to rule for 42 months. This test will show those who will really prove to be God's people and thereby make it into a post Armageddon world under his kingdom or those who will need to be killed off at Armageddon.
________________

[10 ...the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.]

[3 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast.17 For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished.]
[5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.]

[6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”]

[2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who are victorious over the wild beast and its image and the number of its name were standing by the sea of glass, holding harps of God.[

[4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.]

[9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.14... “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.]

[20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

 

The WTS is no more or less Jehovah's channel than any other so-called religion claiming to be. All religions are made up of people, people who will be but through God's hour of test that he uses the 8th king to do so.

There is no physical temple/holy place of God today. His temple/holy place is spiritual, made up of physical people. When the 8th king comes to power, and the hour of test/judgment commences, all those that are heeding the angels warning to worship God and not follow the 8th king, these ones are the physical people that make up God's spiritual house/temple/holy place.

Because these people are refusing to follow the 8th king during his rule, the consequence for that is their being taken into captivity/locked up and even killed. (GT upon them.) In that way during that time is how the 8th king is in God's holy place/sitting in his temple/trampling his people/holy city/house.

Meanwhile, all those that are following/supporting the 8th king, they are not captives and being killed/being trampled on, like those who are worshiping Jehovah. Those following/supporting the 8th king are living out their lives however it is that the 8th king, with the solidarity/unity of nations has decided how everyone will live during that time. But of course, when Jesus comes, all these are the same ones that will undergo God's wrath, including the 8th king, etc.
___________________

[16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”]
[16 Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that the spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and you are that temple.]
[5 you yourselves as living stones are being built up into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, in order to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.]

[5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
[24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]
[2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.]

[20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

[7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]

[17 Between the porch and the altar Let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say: ‘Do feel pity, O Jehovah, for your people;
Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn, Letting the nations rule over them. Why should the peoples say, “Where is their God?”’] [3 “For look! in those days and in that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather together all the nations And bring them down to the Valley of Je·hoshʹa·phat. I will enter into judgment with them there In behalf of my people and my inheritance Israel, For they scattered them among the nations, And they divided up my land among themselves.]

[31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. 41 “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”]

 

[United Nations: Guterres warns ‘we are on the edge of an abyss’
The UN’s chief painted a grim picture of a divided and polarized world and urged solidarity among nations.…The world has never been more threatened or more divided, United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres told nations of the world on Tuesday as he kicked off the 76th General Assembly session, urging all 193 member states to “wake up” and realize that solidarity is the only way out of disaster.]

When all member states/nations agree to come together as one under the UN/8th king, ALL people living in those different nations, will live under the 8th king rules/laws. Because those wishing to worship Jehovah will refuse to live under those rules/laws, they will be taken captive/locked up no matter what nation they are living in. So, nations under the 8th king rule will trample ALL people looking to worship and remain faithful to Jehovah.

Jehovah used Neb in the past to execute his judgement.

[9 ...King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon, my servant,]

Likewise, Jehovah is using the 8th king as his servant to carry out his hour of test/judgment. This is why Jehovah himself puts into the hearts of the 10 kings to give their power to the beast, making him the 8th king. When the UN becomes the 8th king that is how/when he has authority over ALL people to carry out Jehovah's test/judgment. Because each nation is in solidarity with the UN at this point, the nation's time of trampling and the 8th king time of authority over ALL is one in the same.
________________________

[3 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast.17 For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished.]

[10 ...the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.]

[6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”]

[5... it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.] cf. [24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]
[2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.]

[2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who are victorious over the wild beast and its image and the number of its name were standing by the sea of glass, holding harps of God.]

Victorious meaning passed the hour of test.

[20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

Killed off with sword failed the hour of test.

 

Yes, so JWs seem to be one of those neo-Mosaic outfits, having their GB as a Moses type mediator and 'Jerusalem today' - 'God's spirit directed organization' - as their mother, rather than the 'Jerusalem above,' which is the mother of those born of God. Ga 4:25,26

In reading the prophets and seeking an application for our day, it might be helpful to try and distinguish between which parts apply to God's nominal people, as in, organized, denominational Christianity, and what pertains to God's spiritual people, the body of Christ, also called the Christian congregation proper.

That this division is necessary and actually scriptural, can be seen by how Jesus talks about 'Jerusalem' in His end times discourse, where He instructs those of His disciples with 'discernment' of this distinction to flee from 'Jerusalem,' which, contra RK, cannot represent the holy ones - the Christian congregation - because then they would have to flee from themselves, which is why 'Jerusalem' stands for God's nominal people coming under His judgment during the great tribulation, and from whom they would then have to distance themselves from - 'flee' - as coming under His judgment during the great tribulation.

True, but 'Scripture' - personified - saw in advance that 'all the nations' would become His people, while those 'in the flesh are not really' God's people, just as also written elsewhere: 'Those not my people I will call My people,' and, again: 'Those to whom no announcement has been made about Him will see, and those who have not heard will understand.' Ga 3:8; Ro 9:8,25; 15:21

The 'great white throne' judgment of Re 20:12-15 with its prior resurrection may, or may not, be at the end of the 1000 years; but if there is no distinction of fate between those who get a resurrection to life and those who are brought back for judgment, then 'let us eat and drink' and 'do what thou wilt,' for it will be all the same if indeed, everybody is getting a new chance in the next life, as JWs wrongly construe Paul's word in Ro 6:7 to imply, namely: 'He that has died has been acquitted from his sin' - because cancellation of debt by cessation of existence means also cancellation of that very existence, with no legal claim of its resumption in the future.

The 'false prophet' misleads 'those who dwell on the earth' and tells them to make an image to the wild beast, which then puts under compulsion 'all persons,' not just those claiming to be Christian. Re 13:11-17

That is the most hilarious line in all of Scripture, throwing gold into a fire and a calf coming out; I have to try that myself one day, lol.


Harry

 

Yes, the three angelic witnesses of Re 14:6-10 flying in midheaven will declare the good news to 'those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and people,' warning them not to worship the beast, its image or to receive its mark on their hands or foreheads.

Harry

 

When they see the disgusting thing standing in a holy place, which, apparently, requires discernment, perhaps as to what 'a holy place' may mean in this context or what, indeed, constitutes a disgusting thing, and what sort of desolation it is supposed to entail, because I see the great tribulation not as some sort of social upheaval, global financial collapse of even WW3, but rather a trampling on Christianity and those professing faith in it by pretty much the rest of the world, who will then worship the revived beast.

True, 'all' means everyone except the chosen ones, and what will then become the great crowd that comes out of the great tribulation.

But the first angel flying in mid heaven, having 'everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,' is then followed by a third angel saying to the same audience in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath.' Re 14:8-10

It thus seems pretty clear to me that all 8 billion people on earth will be put under pressure to take the mark of the beast, and are therefore sternly warned against it by this angel flying in mid heaven.


Harry

 

Not speaking for Alvy here, but to me they are the same event happening at the same time.

Harry

 

Again not speaking for Alvy here, but both courtyard as well as the altar and those worshiping there are all located in the 'holy city' of 'Jerusalem' which as a whole represents Christianity, both the good and the ugly, that in its entirety will be trampled on for 42 month.

Harry

 

I agree with you on that like I already said here:

_________________________________

Yes, it is the 'holy city' that the nations are said to trample, not the 'courtyard'. The 'holy city' is 'Jerusalem'. (In this case those who make up 'spiritual Jerusalem'.)

[24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]
[11 And a reed like a rod was given to me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.] cf. [11 Now the princes of the people were living in Jerusalem; but the rest of the people cast lots to bring one out of every ten to live in Jerusalem, the holy city, while the other nine stayed in the other cities.]

Those who are worshipping in the temple sanctuary are worshipping God. They are 'spiritual Jerusalem' who will be trampled.
Those found in the courtyard are who go along with/support the nations who are then in solidarity with the 8th king. They as a whole are the ones who trample the 'holy city', 'spiritual Jerusalem'.

That is what I said here:

_____________________________________

The second fulfillment does not take place like the first. In the first it was necessary for those putting faith in Jesus to heed his warning to flee Jerusalem. In doing so they escaped the destruction upon it. In the second, the DT/8th king will ban religion (worshipping God) insisting that he be worshipped instead. But those who refuse to do so will be the ones that are trampled on/captives/and even killed. There is no fleeing for them, they must undergo this test from Jehovah in order to become part of the GC that come out of that time. (Also, some among those are who will rule with Jesus.)

Yes, the GT is the 42-months time of trampling during the 8th king rule, trampling all those who refuse to worship him.

 

I see a difference in station and treatment between those in the courtyard - 'given to the nations,' who are not even worthwhile being measured - and the altar, and those worshiping in the temple sanctuary, some of whom, upon being measured, might still fail to measure up, and therefore be in need of divine discipline, similar to the 'some' of 'those having insight being made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them, and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of the end,' in Daniel 11:35.

Those in the courtyard are not people of the nations, but professing Christians that have been abandoned by God to be delivered up to the nations, the way the 1.1 million apostate Jews in 70 CE where handed over to the execution of divine judgment back then, by being trampled into oblivion, which is God's just judgment on 'Christendom' for having misrepresented Him so badly before the world.

Those in the sanctuary and the altar are also judged - 'measured' - but are not subject to God's wrath, as are those in the courtyard - a profound distinction; hence the difference of station before God between these two categories of people in 'Jerusalem,' who will experience different forms of trampling, although the beast and its worshipers will see and make no such distinctions, because they just hate Christianity as such, no matter if professed sincerely, or merely even as a front - they want it gone completely.

The courtyard stands for a category of Christians that is also distinct from the majority of professing Christians, who at the reviving of the beast will give up their pretense, in exchange for out-rightly becoming worshipers of the beast, to then persecute their erstwhile brothers, while the former, as 'praise the Lord' type hypocrites, will staunchly go to their deaths while imagining themselves on His side, only to get a taste of God's 'strange work.' Is 28:21

Hence, those in the courtyard are being trampled on because they are in 'Jerusalem,' and will therefore not be able to do any trampling upon themselves, or even others, for that matter; only those Christians who give up their profession, and thereby removing themselves from the courtyard by joining the beast, will participate in the trampling upon their former profession, it seems to me.

For the die-hard's of 'Christendom' to experience God's wrath expressed through the wild beast, instead of at Christ's return as one of the beast worshipers, will be a distinction without a difference.

The disgusting thing standing in 'a holy place' will deceive shallow Christians into believing it to be the promised kingdom of God.

I believe that those who have kept the word about Christ's endurance will also be kept from the hour of test, that is to come as a test upon the whole inhabited earth, because that is what He has promised to do - otherwise why this distinction?

Similarly, I believe that in our time there will also be a fleeing of some sort, in order not to share in God's wrath upon those who justly deserve it, where what form that exactly might take, seems yet unclear to me; but Jesus plainly instructed us to be 'making supplication continually in order to succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man,' otherwise there would be no point to His saying to 'keep awake then,' and try to discern the disgusting thing standing in a holy place. Lu 21:36

Harry

 

I see the 'placing' of the disgusting thing as a 'replacing' of the 'constant feature,' because the alternate reading of Da 12:11 - which is a tiny minority of translations - has it as there being a 1290 day gap between the placing of the abomination and its serving as a replacing of the 'daily,' which would leave this time span as a vacuum with no apparent purpose.

The Communists in Russia tried to create such a spiritual vacuum by banning Christianity, but found that people always need something to worship, because nature abhors a vacuum.

The sentence structure of Da 12:11 leaves open to where its 'from' is to be attached, but the context of verse 8 clearly shows that it links up with the question of 'what will be the final part of these things,' meaning therefore, from the time of the 'removal' and 'replacing with' there will be 1290 days to the 'final part' of the end, i.e. the coming of Christ.

If I get time, I will try and look into the reasons offered for the alternative reading, but contextually it makes no sense to me.

Harry