What if the purpose of the 1290 days is so that we may understand the timing of when the disgusting is placed? What are the 1290 days for in the context of Daniel's words, if not the time in between the two events? "In 66 CE and following the initial outbreak of the violence in Jerusalem, Eleazar ben Hanania convinced the priests of the Jewish Temple to stop service of sacrifice for the Emperor." (Source) Three and a half years later, Rome entered the city and destroyed the temple. So, sacrifices were removed, and then three and a half years later the DT was placed. Continuing with the scenario of the temple sanctuary having fulfillment in Christ, the daily sacrifices today can be our praise. "Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name." Heb 13:15 This is very much in conjunction with buying and selling from Christ, wouldn't you say? (Rev 3:18) Now, if those sacrifices of praise were handed over to the beast, that sure would give us a reference time period to understand when the disgusting thing would stand in a holy place. "It became great, even as great as the Prince of the host. And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown." Dan 8:11 And, of course, we know the "he" there in verse 11 is the "Prince of the host," as found in verse 10. So the sacrifices of praise are taken away from God? Perhaps the trampling is the 666 when Christians hand their praise of worship over to the beast at the beginning of the 42 months, hence why the temple isn't attacked yet. (Rev 11 = Twelve Loaves = 144k) Perhaps the "alternative reading" might be the true reading? (Dan 12:11) If the deathstroke is not the abyssing, we very well could find that the first thing to come would be Christianity preaching support of a conglomerate equity agenda (image) well before WW3, and well before the disgusting thing is placed; hence the constant feature removed from God and given to the wild beast. In Jerusalem, had Christ's followers waited until Rome entered the temple (DT), they would have already been dead... Why do you suppose Jesus says to flee when Jerusalem is surrounded but then says to flee when they see the disgusting thing standing in a holy place? Weren't these two events over three years apart? Joshua
So your view of a 1290 day period between the cessation of the 'daily sacrifice' and the start of the disgusting thing standing in a holy place for the presumably 1260 days of the great tribulation, would amount to about 7 years, or a prophetic week, which time period I view as the 70th week of Da 9, where the beast / disgusting thing / antiChrist makes a deal with 'Jerusalem' for 7 years, but half way through, after 42 month, he will cause the daily sacrifice to cease, rather than at the start thereof, as in your scenario. Da 9:26,27 In my scenario the cessation of the daily sacrifice is caused - forced - by the disgusting thing standing in a holy place to trample upon and replace it with worship of itself, but what do you see as the cause for it ceasing 1290 days before that happens? The social justice gospel has been preached by most Churches now for some time, while becoming ever more strident, but I expect them having to drop Jesus when the abomination of desolation replaces and banishes them, and Him, as the savior of mankind, 42 month before He returns. For all the world to follow the beast with admiration something catastrophic, followed by the miraculous, would have to happen, which the 'sword stroke' scenario seems to be the best fit for, in my view. Harry
I contend that the 1260 and 1290 days start on the same day. The sackcloth is mourning the loss of the daily sacrifices/sacrifices of praise given to the wild beast. (666/Image) 30 days after the end of the 42 months the disgusting thing is placed. 10 days after that Christ appears in the clouds. Ending the 1335th day is the New World. In my summation, anyway... I don't see the constant feature ceasing; I believe it is taken away from God. The wording of Dan 8 gives the impression that it is taken/removed from God, not necessarily ceased, as some translations put it. The removal of the constant feature from God would be the 666 image that would be preached support of in Christianity. Congregants would have to adopt it to remain members. It is my understanding that Jesus establishes buying and selling as the sacrifices of praise and preaching work. (Rev 3:18) Therefore, only the faithful can receive the mark. I do not believe the mark applies to anyone other than faithful ones falling into apostasy. The whole world can worship the image, but the ones that are able will receive the apostasy mark. However, I see a single denomination accomplishing God's Will on earth today. Not that they are any different than the Jewish elders of Jesus' day but such is prophesied. Joshua
Wouldn't that means the disgusting thing got only 10 days to desolate and trample on 'Jerusalem,' which is also the great tribulation on Christianity, such as has never happened before nor ever will happen again? I would rather have 10 days of persecution, where it would be easy to go into hiding for that short period, than 42 month; but I am afraid it will be the latter. Then why does the angel flying in mid heaven warn those who dwell on the earth of every nation against worshiping the beast or its image and receiving its mark if it only applied to Christians? Re 14:6-12 I am familiar with most arguments made in support of that proposition, such as that they are the only ones making known God's Name, for example; but how did Jesus make God's Name known? Did He walk up and down the country side telling people that God's Name is Jehovah, like JWs do today? The intellectual and spiritual dishonesty of this people is simply astonishing. An 'anointed' sister once showed me all the Scriptures that make reference to Jesus and others 'making known' God's Name, and that this is proof positive that they are His exclusive people; but since Jehovah is the God of Truth, doesn't if follow that His people ought to at least tell the truth about Jesus' coming and consequent presence, instead of lying about it? Wouldn't that be a start to make known His Name by telling people what He stood for, instead of telling them that His Name is Jehovah, which, besides already being well known, was probably more popularized by The Life of Brian than JWs ever did? Anyhow, I am open to discuss any reasons for why you think they are the single denomination accomplishing God's will on earth today. Harry
In my scenario, it is the courtyard (daily sacrifice) and holy city that are trampled for 42 months, as Rev 11 says, but yet the temple itself is attacked for only 10 days at the end of the 1290 days. (144k = 12 Loaves) This attack occurs after the two witnesses are resurrected in sight of them all. The attack by the beast is through the wrong assumption that if they cut the cords of the remaining 144k from Earth, God will leave this planet and them alone. "The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying, “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision." Psm 2:2-4 "Don’t be afraid of what you are about to suffer. The devil will throw some of you into prison to test you. You will suffer for ten days. But if you remain faithful even when facing death, I will give you the crown of life." Rev 2:10 "And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him." Dan 11:45 It is my summation that the angel is only speaking to the holy ones. "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." Rev 14:12 This moment occurs after the 42 months, after the two witnesses are resurrected, and after BTG is destroyed. The angel warns the remaining 144k (before Christ appears to gather them) that if any of them falter at the attack of the DT, they will receive the mark. There is a very disturbing account in the book of Maccabees. (2Mcc 7) A mother watches seven of her sons tortured for refusing to worship the image. Each one is given an option: capitulate or die. The mother encourages each one as they die faithful through torture. When the 144k are physically attacked just before Jesus appears, this certainly will be as if touching the eyeball of God. "For thus said the LORD of hosts, after his glory sent me to the nations who plundered you, for he who touches you touches the apple of his eye:" Zech 2:8 Elohim = He is It's my understanding that His people accomplish the Lord's Will of going out preaching He is, and His kingdom. "And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Mth 10:7 If we read the books of the prophets, just as in the Lord's day, so would be in our day. The elders are treating the flocks poorly, speaking lies, and not seeking God's truths. Hence their scattering and captivity into Babylon. But with that said, didn't God always have a singular people on earth accomplishing His Will? "Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture!” declares the LORD. Therefore thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning the shepherds who care for my people: “You have scattered my flock and have driven them away, and you have not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for your evil deeds, declares the LORD. Then I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them, and I will bring them back to their fold, and they shall be fruitful and multiply. I will set shepherds over them who will care for them, and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall any be missing, declares the LORD." Jer 23:1-4 Joshua Chart: Used to demonstrate "Tribulation/Great Tribulations." The dates simply show the only time within 2000 years the holy days yet to be fulfilled line up with the chronology of Daniel.
But isn't the temple sanctuary, the altar and those worshiping in it, as well as the courtyard placed in the holy city that will be trampled for 42 month, so that the temple sanctuary naturally would also be trampled for that time period, by virtue of it being located in 'Jerusalem?' Isn't the 'come on up here,' in Re 11:12, in reference to the getting 'caught away in clouds,' of 1 Thes 5:17, at the return of Christ, when they are glorified as immortals, and meet Jesus in the air? How, then, can they be attacked as immortal Spirits in Heaven? This seems to talk about the point in time when the revived beast 'opens its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His Name and His Residence, even those residing in Heaven,' during the 42 month of its power over the world. Re 13:6 Also, the 'let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us,' seems reminiscent of what happened in Ge 11:6: 'Why, now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them.' This seems to be the point during the 42 month of beast rule where Jehovah allows Himself to be made redundant by whatever technological, social engineering or other means He allows Satan to use to remove all fear of God from the equation, so that people can finally be themselves, and express their true feelings about Him without fear of negative repercussions. I see the ten days as symbolic of the complete time of suffering for the holy ones during the 42 month of beast rule over the earth. If they were literal ten days, it wouldn't be such a great deal, because, hiding and being without food for ten days is not such a difficult thing to do. 'How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming? . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body . . . and this which is mortal must put on immortality.' 1 Co 15:35,44,53 How can someone resurrected as immortal Spirit be persecuted? Jesus warned us not to follow those who, coming on the basis of His Name, are preaching that, 'The due time has approached,' or, 'The time is at hand,' as Russell's first volume of 'Studies In The Scriptures' was titled, and yet people down to our day are disobeying Christ and keep following the WT which he founded. Lu 21:8 So why would Jesus warn us against following those preaching 'The time for the kingdom is at hand' in the end times, when He Himself used that very message 2000 years ago? It seems that this message is supposed to be preached during the 42 month, when to the beast worshiping masses the 'kingdom of God' is already finally ruling the world - won't that be an unpopular message then? The whole world agrees with us today that we are desperately in need of unifying global governance, but try bringing that message when all the earth is following the beast with admiration after its sword stroke got healed, when they have finally achieved global peace and security, and see what happens to you? Yes, and to me that would be the 2 + billion Christians, both Churchy types and unaffiliated ones, good and bad alike, that compose God's people today divided up as the invisible Church and the actual body of Christ, where JWs are just a tiny part of it, despite their navel gazing and imagining themselves as 'God's exclusive spirit directed organization' here on earth. Anyone professing to be a Christian will be judged by God as being one, regardless whether he proves himself to be such, or not. Harry
There is no reason to include the temple being trampled on at the same time as the courtyard and city, for Rev 11 speaks of them separately. It excludes the temple from the statement of trampling the city. If I say that, other than my bedroom, the whole house is open to be viewed, one understands that it is not the whole house that is open to be viewed. If Rev 11 says, the courtyard and city outside are what is trampled and not the temple, who are we to include the temple? Jerusalem can be trampled, without the temple being included. This is what happened in 66-70 CE as well. The temple was not destroyed at the same moment as the rest of Jerusalem. If each part of the temple sanctuary and courtyard has specific fulfillment in Christ, then their fulfillment in the end-times prophecy would no doubt have specific fulfillment, wouldn't you say? Everyone who was seeking forgiveness of sin could enter the courtyard, hence the white curtains surrounding it. (Rev 3:18) Only the elders could enter the Holy Place, and the High Priest the Most Holy. Just as we know, the Most Holy represents heaven, and the Holy Place is the earthly realm where the elders/12 Loaves/144k reside. If the disgusting thing is placed in the Holy Place (not most Holy Place) 1290 days after the constant feature (in the courtyard) is handed over, prophecy speaks of these elements separately. The Most Holy, Holy Place, and courtyard are all spoken of separately. If the deathstorke is not the abyssing, then it certainly is the constant feature/daily sacrifice that is given over for 42 months, not God's remaining 144k/12 Loaves/Holy Place being attacked during this time. Our Lord made a distinction between Jerusalem being surrounded and the DT attack. That's why I asked your impression of His words to flee in both cases, even though they ended up being three years apart. Through the chronology, I discovered that the remaining 144k alive when Christ receives the kingdom of the earth will be transfigured but will not meet our Lord in the air until 40 days later. At the end of the 42 months, at the 7th trumpet, the Lamb receives the kingdom of the earth. At that point, the Holy Spirit is poured out, and Christ's brothers are transfigured, and those dead in Christ are resurrected just like Christ was. Those resurrected as spirit beings will remain on earth 40 days until they are caught away with the remaining ones alive of the 144k when Christ appears in the clouds 40 days later. This is the same thing Christ experienced. "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." 1Th 4:15,16 "Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been." Rev 6:11 This scripture says, "changed," not raised like those of the 144k who were dead. "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." 1Cor 15:52 ------- The two witnesses have a different fate. They are transfigured, then killed three and a half days later, and then raised to heaven on the seventh day for all to see. I believe this is the 70th week in the end. Christ appears 7 times or 2520 days after the boastful words of the wild beast/little horn (666/Image). The 1290 days end ten days before Christ appears, hence the DT attacks the 144k that remain alive ten days before Christ appears. 30 days before the DT attacks Christ receives the kingdom of the earth, and the Holy Spirit is poured out, the dead in Christ resurrected and those still alive transfigured. (Maybe they will be transfigured for a moment or longer; we don't know.) Those dead in Christ will be raised as spirit beings on earth as Jesus experienced; however, the 144k who remain alive will not become spirit beings until Christ appears in the clouds. It is these who remain alive the DT will attack. The resurrected 144k and the 144k remaining still alive will all be caught up to meet him. "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1Th 4:17 I would say for the same reason He admonished His disciples to listen to the elders of His time. "So do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice." Just because God has placed someone in a position to accomplish His Will, that does not mean they will be perfect. Noah was a drunk, and Moses was a murderer. David was a murderer, adulterer, etc... The Jewish leaders and Jewish system had a lot of flaws, but that didn't have anything to do with the fact that they accomplished a purpose for God. In fact if I were looking for God's people today, I would be looking for those who speak for God, but are in grave danger of violating every one of His commands. That's just me, from my understanding of prophecy. I'm with you. I see Christendom as a whole being tested during the 666 image as well. God's people are from all denominations. As I mentioned, I believe the 666 only applies to those once faithful in all of Christianity. But I also believe the 430 days of Ezekiel's brick has fulfillment in the end. A specific branch of Christianity accomplishing His Will will go down completely. There will be a 70-week fulfillment in the end when the two witnesses call to rebuild. (Zech 4) And it is this newly rebuilt spiritual temple (collective 144k) that is attacked by the DT. Joshua
It doesn't say that the courtyard is trampled on; it says that the whole of 'Jerusalem' will be trampled on wherein the courtyard is located. So the reason we know that the courtyard is trampled is because of inference, namely, its location within the city. It doesn't say that the temple is not trampled on, but we know that it is, because of the same inference of it being located in the city. Hence, if we were to admit the inference of the courtyard being trampled, we would also have to admit the same inference of the temple being included in the trampling, because both have their location in the city - we can't have one without the other to be logically consistent. Do you think that when the beast turns on Christianity it will consult the intricacies of each of the 30,000+ sect's and denomination's doctrinal positions and belief systems as regards 'prophetic shadows,' in order to pick one, or a few out, to persecute, while leaving all others alone? I see the 'disgusting thing causing desolation standing in a holy place' for us, as its trampling upon Christianity, and replacing it at the same time, as the globally admired object of hope for mankind, the very 'kingdom of God on earth,' which it will successfully imitate. But as in the first century, the fleeing has to be done upon 'catching sight of' and discerning what is seen, in order to succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur, and in standing before the Son of man. This doesn't mean or imply that there is going to be a rerun of what happened at Christ's first coming, as if what happened then were to be a shadow of things to come for us, just as He intimated in telling us that, 'Days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, but you will not see it!' Lu 17:20 When the dead in Christ are raised at Christ's coming, those of the holy ones still alive in the flesh can then no longer be persecuted, because they will experience 'relief along with us' - the resurrected chosen ones - at that point in time. 2 Thes 1:7 Yes, that pertained to those under the Mosaic dispensation back then - and may still apply to God's 'nominal people' today. However, I see Jesus' words as applying only before the start of Christianity, before the anointing of the Holy Spirit, which would then be the Helper that teaches the 'knowing of Jehovah,' the Spirit of Truth that will declare to you the things coming, the anointing from Him that is teaching you about all things, and is true, and is no lie, so that you do not need anyone to be teaching you. Joh 16:13; 1 Joh 2:27 Yes, that is certainly true even today about those 'inside the camp' of God's 'nominal people,' the 'more numerous' ones of the 'desolate woman.' Ro 9:6; Heb 13:13,14; Gal 4:27 But that is also why God's 'unrevealed people' are 'outside the camp' of His 'nominal people,' bearing the reproach of Jesus by them, as those who have been born from Above. I think there is a reason for why the sheep are said to be such as are unknowingly doing good to Christ's Brothers. Harry
Below, in blue, is WT's revised understanding from 2013, I believe, of what 'Jerusalem' stands for: *** rr p. 239 Summary of Clarifications *** Is Christendom the antitype of ancient apostate Jerusalem? Pure Worship: Chap. 16, box 16A Previous understanding: Unfaithful Jerusalem is a prophetic type of Christendom. Hence, the destruction of Jerusalem prophetically foreshadowed that of Christendom. Clarification: Conditions in unfaithful Jerusalem—such as idolatry and widespread corruption—remind us of Christendom, but we no longer refer to Christendom as the antitypical Jerusalem. Reasoning behind the change: There is no clear Scriptural basis for such a type-antitype approach. Unlike ancient Jerusalem, Christendom has never practiced pure worship. And while Jerusalem did receive Jehovah’s forgiveness for a time, there is no such prospect ahead for Christendom. But if Christendom - the physical and spiritual realm of Christian belief - is not the 'Jerusalem' upon which the great tribulation will come according to Jesus' word, who or what is it, and will there even be a great tribulation now, since this 'clarification' of understanding? It seems to have finally dawned on WT that the trampling of the tribulation will not be to the destruction of 'Jerusalem,' but that there is going to be a restoration of it, which then gives rise to the dilemma they now face of having to commit themselves to a position they would find rather unpalatable, namely, that they are just as much a result of what Jesus started 2000 years ago as all other Christian denominations and sects, and that therefore, individuals of all of them could end up coming out of the great tribulation on Christianity, not just JWs, which would smash their imagined monopoly on being the sole dispensers of salvation. Where do they think 'Christendom' came from, if not from a gradual falling away from what the apostles taught since the inception of the Christian faith, and all under the active Headship of Jesus, who started it all? How can the WT-anointed not see this, if they were 'once for all enlightened with the Holy Spirit of Truth? Pretending much it seems, like they are the only game in town, just like their spiritual forebears the Pharisees of old. Is that the faith once for all time delivered to the holy ones, or just a superstition of the idolaters that have been captured by it? Jude 3; Pr 20:25 Harry
You've helped me clarify something. Thank you. Remember when I said the constant feature/daily was handed over to the wild beast and did not cease? That's what's being said here. The courtyard, daily sacrifices is handed over to the nations. God's people hand over the courtyard when they adopt the image/666 in the preaching work. The courtyard where the daily sacrifice (Heb 13:15) takes place is given over to the nations by adopting apostasy in the preaching work, and the temple isn't measured, for it's attacked 1290 days later. (Rev 3:18, Rev 13) Fascinating... If you want to say that the temple and courtyard are also "trampled on" at this time, I concede (after this clarification), but the disgusting thing is certainly not placed in the Holy Place until the end of the 1290 days. No, the text only concerns itself with those who can adopt the mark, His faithful. Everyone else who worships the image do so without the mark. Not having the mark does not save you. A murderer or atheist without the mark is not granted life. The trumpets pertain to those groaning, and the bowl to those taking the mark. Both the trumpets and bowls occur simultaneously. What are the 1290 days for in Dan 12:11? You said they must pertain to the coming of Christ because verse 8 says "the outcome of these things." But verse 12 mentions 1335 days, and the 1260 days are mentioned too. Why do you pick the end of the 1290 days as the end "of these things?" Daniel's question was several sentences before. Joshua
I think that it is implied that God is giving the courtyard to the nations, not God's people; as for JWs and their 'preaching work,' they don't believe that Satan is yet to give his authority to the wild beast, which, after having its sword stroke healed, will be followed by all the earth with admiration and worshiped, because they preach that the incoming kingdom that is about to replace the present, wicked system of nation states will be God's kingdom, not the revived NWO beast, so that they are already priming the world to accept Satan's solution to mankind's problems as if it were from God. Re 13 The mark of the beast to them means showing loyalty to one's people, and the superior authorities of one's sovereign country over which God has appointed each individual 'Caesar.' Right, not having the mark does not save one, but receiving it is the result of worshiping the beast and its image, so that being put under compulsion by all the earth worshiping it, there will be no atheists, for they will all either with admiration or compulsion worship Satan and fall down before its image, so that even atheists will be eternally damned for worshiping Satan - why would Jehovah excuse them, and only wipe out former Christians for this idolatry? Re 14:9 The variation between 1260, 1290 and 1335 days isn't much of a difference to not see them as round about 42 month, when the revived beast rules the world. When the abomination causing desolation stands in a holy place it might be an idea to start counting days. Harry
Can I ask? So you don't think there'll be anyone who doesn't support the image of the beast but yet still won't make it? Mr. Atheist hates governments and refuses to worship the beast, or its image. Does he make it? "Excuse them?" From my understanding, one must have faith backed by works. If one has neither, yet does not worship the beast or its image, that person is still not making it. If the 666 only pertains to the faithful who fall, that has nothing to do with those who were never faithful to begin with. I understand why you would see the narritive of Rev 13 as idolatry committed by all people, but I see it pertaining to buying and selling from Christ; where only those interested in serving Christ can recieve the mark in order to continue service of Him. (Rev 3:18) That's an interesting perspective. We don't need to discuss it, but I still can't grasp why everyone continues to hang onto the deathstroke as the abyssing...lol I understand it, I was there for decades; but since my change of understanding they are night and day. You were on to something with Babel being the deathstroke, in my opinion. Joshua
The revived beast will unite mankind under an AI controlled paradise, where crime and corruption, hatred and strife, will be eliminated; an age of prosperity and plenty, men marrying, women being given in marriage, all the earth following it with admiration, working miracles, healing mankind, genetically engineering people to live forever independently, and in the face of God, blaspheming Him and His residence; hence there will be no atheists, only those who worship the liberator of mankind, and those who, for whatever reason, refuse. If Jehovah takes note of someone giving one of Christ's brothers a glass of water when thirsty, why would He not also get someone into the 1000 year probation kingdom for having his friends and family, and even the whole world turn on him, rather than doing an act of worship to Satan - is it possible that His standard of righteousness might differ from ours? I know that 'God's spirit directed representatives' require people to at least finish the Truth book in less than 6 month, to be followed by another more advanced publication before they qualify for the salvation ensuring baptism into association with the organization; but what if Jehovah has different criteria? What if there really is such a thing as being 'kept from the hour of test' by Jesus, without which grace no one could pass it, and Him, instead of judging at the spur of a moment, has actually been watching people throughout their lives, and then at the crucial moment of test, when they would make the wrong move, has mercy on them, and keeps them from making this fatal decision? Re 3:10 And by the way, who are the people during the 1000 year reign that need to be shepherded with an iron rod and dashed to pieces like clay pots? Re 2:25 It doesn't mean that those who get through the great tribulation are saints, just that they refused to worship Satan on penalty of death, and unknowingly did good to Christ's brothers. Math 25 Lets say there are two people working for a charity, volunteering their time and energy, one is a Christian who does it because he feels bad for his failings, and also wants to be seen as a good person by the community, and the other is an atheist who simply can't believe that a righteous God would allow him to be born a sinner, but who was helped once by others when in need, and now wants to contribute towards aiding those less fortunate - which of the two might Jesus be more inclined to keep from the hour of test? Not that I can speak for Him, but might He not also look at their motives behind their doing good works? I think that WT did a number on us, with the idea that people are on Satan's team because they vote in an election, celebrate birthdays, or salute the flag. "For I say to you that if your righteousness does not abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens." Mat 5:20 It is a hard call having to out-pharisee the Pharisees. Harry
Personally, I view God a little more exacting. Mosses killed a husband and wife for holding back goods when they probably obeyed other commands. God destroyed millions while only saving eight at the flood. An angel killed 185k soldiers in one night. Surely there was a decent person in there. God killed the first born in Egypt. Jesus killed a tree and threw a whip around in the courtyard turning over tables. As I read the qualifications for life, I don't see such an open door. That's just me. That attitude Satan introduced in the Garden must be routed out. People think they know you better than you know yourself. They like to twist your words and assume. That will not exist in God's kingdom. What's the very next thing you expect in your chronology, and when do you believe it will occur? Joshua
No, I agree with the point you make about God's 'kindness and severity;' it is just that the criteria He uses for showing one or the other, that can be a bit obscure for us. Ro 11:22 Take the example of the man collecting sticks on the sabbath, who then was promptly put to death for it, while the disciples picked grain on the sabbath and it was alright, which I imagine had something to do with their attitude, like having faith or not, and showing respect or disregard for the law and its Giver, things that we can only guess at, because it has got to do with the heart rather than a difference in outwardly observable acts. That is a bit hard to say; the elite want to bring in a cashless economy based on 'carbon credits' and 'social credit scores' run by AI, of which they are in control, and they are trying to introduce this gradually without too much upheaval, but they are also in a hurry, because more and more people are waking up to their schemes, so that they will have to crash the system in order to get people on their knees to give away their freedoms and accept this total control system, which I see reflected in the wild beast scenario of Re 13, where all the earth follows it with admiration upon reviving from its sword stroke, which I expect to happen some time soon. Harry
I'm sorry if I don't agree but the 666 would most certainly be the placing of the disgusting thing. There is nothing in the bible that identifies as anything worse than the 666 where the whole world is compelled to worship it.
Jesus breathes both of these statements below; do you believe they speak of the same thing? "So that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name." Rev 13:17 "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see." Rev 3:18 Joshua
No I do not believe they speak of the same thing. One is talking about buying spiritual gold, the other about buying AND selling physical things. Do you think we can sell something to Jesus?